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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pregnant people?

999 replies

Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 03:12

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

OP posts:
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NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:02

A lot of men say 'we're pregnant' these days!

Sorry glib.

I understand that the idea is to cater for non binary female people and trans men.

Pregnant people just feels really... Dunno.

Actually yes I do.

I'm disabled and there was a big thing about putting people first. Rather than focusing on their disability.

So wheelchair users became people who use wheelchairs.

Autistic people became people with autism.

Etc

This was a change to language that was discussed a lot including mainstream media a few years back.

So where's that gone? Shouldn't we are least be people who are pregnant?

Hadn't realised that before just now.

NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:04

Pregnant women and other people who are pregnant would be fully inclusive

Of course linking female/ woman/ girl with female reproductive stuff is not allowed (even though that's what makes us, as a group, female/ woman/ girl).

Doona · 11/04/2021 04:04

I'm happy being a 'person' or a 'woman' . Both are accurate.

AssassinatedBeauty · 11/04/2021 04:09

The word woman has become so unpalatable and unsayable in recent times, when the word "man" has not.

Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 04:11

A lot of people have complained, citing that they feel it's "erasing" women. I have to admit to kind of feeling the same?

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NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:14

Doona fair enough

This is from NHS

'If you are under 40 and have regular sex without using contraception, there is an 8 in 10 chance you will get pregnant within 1 year.'

Soooo... Is that 8 in 10 or 4 in 10 if you're female?

NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:15

Or how about (hypothetical but you get the drift).

No girls are educated past primary age in X

Vs

50% of children are educated past primary age in X

?

NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:18

And a more current one, and I've seen this sort of language

Large numbers of children are reporting being subject to sex attacks in schools

Vs

Large numbers of children report sex offences in schools, with girl's being most at risk from boys

(That could be worded better).

Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 04:23

@NiceGerbil Why is it women/girls can't be mentioned any more?

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Doona · 11/04/2021 04:27

Yes, ambiguous language would be bad. There's no ambiguity in the case of pregnant people, though.

Doona · 11/04/2021 04:30

Just in terms of style, I'd prefer pregnant person to, say, expectant mother. Seems less cheesy.

Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 04:32

Are they changing the language now for when it applies predominantly to men, too?

For example (off the top of my head)...

For people over 50, a regular screen for prostate cancer is recommended.

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Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 04:38

I think I've answered my own question here!
Just found this on the NHS website:

Routinely screening all men to check their prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels...

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NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:49

No of course they aren't.

Doona the NHS page I'm talking about just suddenly replaced the word women with people.. Rendering it definitely ambiguous.

And what of the whole thing about putting the person first? A positive change in language for people with disabilities. That is now widely adopted. Not for pregnant people though.

And what's wrong with pregnant women and other people who are pregnant?

And the fact this language is being widely adopted for things where it does detract from the message, usually (always?) to the detriment of women and girls?

And if this is very important why is stuff about men saying men, almost all the time?

And why do so many media outlets, charities etc use the person language in some contexts, but not in others?

With covid, it wasn't people with penises more at risk on the front page. Charities don't put out adverts saying children with vaginas denied an education, do they.

It's bollocks. Misogynist bollocks.

NiceGerbil · 11/04/2021 04:52

How would the public react if the news said children with vaginas report high incidence of sexual assault in schools?

It wouldn't play well

That's why it's only used in certain circs.

Appalling hypocrites.

humblehearth · 11/04/2021 04:57

No such thing as a "pregnant person." Appalling that medical professionals are going along with these lies.

SaturdayRocks · 11/04/2021 05:00

I don’t understand why transmen are getting pregnant. If you’re so sure you’re a man, why would you want to get pregnant, gestate a baby and give birth?

Men can’t do that.

ASugarr · 11/04/2021 06:30

@Trustisamust

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc. They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women. I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?
I personally think it makes more sense due to trans men who become pregnant and would like support without being misgendered.
EdgeOfACoin · 11/04/2021 07:13

I personally think it makes more sense due to trans men who become pregnant and would like support without being misgendered.

As a pregnant woman who is undergoing a uniquely female experience, I would like for that experience to be recognised, not erased. I would like not to be gaslit into believing that anyone other than a female can give birth. They cannot. I find it offensive.

I've noticed that a lot of doula websites refer to 'people who are pregnant', which surprised and disappointed me. So much for empowering women.

I've also been reading Give Birth Like A Feminist, which is an excellent read. If we want feminism to make a difference to women's birth experiences, we have to recognise birth as something that only females go through. Birth is a feminist issue.

Fortunately, the official literature I have been given so far during pregnancy talks about women rather than 'birthing people' or some other euphemism.

As for misgendering... Given the numbers of ftm transitioners who will need to undergo hysterectomies in order to avoid vaginal atrophy and other health problems arising from taking cross-sex hormones, the number of transmen becoming pregnant is going to be pretty rare. Furthermore, given that an mtf transitioner would have to come off all cross-sex hormones for the duration of pregnancy, I'm also not sure what the difference would be between a transman and a woman. And finally, I find it difficult to believe that someone with severe gender dysphoria would be fine going through pregnancy and childbirth but traumatised by being referred to as a woman.

It also very much annoys me that I have had to use the term 'anyone other than a female' in this post in an attempt not to have this message deleted.

ASugarr · 11/04/2021 07:22

@EdgeOfACoin

I personally think it makes more sense due to trans men who become pregnant and would like support without being misgendered.

As a pregnant woman who is undergoing a uniquely female experience, I would like for that experience to be recognised, not erased. I would like not to be gaslit into believing that anyone other than a female can give birth. They cannot. I find it offensive.

I've noticed that a lot of doula websites refer to 'people who are pregnant', which surprised and disappointed me. So much for empowering women.

I've also been reading Give Birth Like A Feminist, which is an excellent read. If we want feminism to make a difference to women's birth experiences, we have to recognise birth as something that only females go through. Birth is a feminist issue.

Fortunately, the official literature I have been given so far during pregnancy talks about women rather than 'birthing people' or some other euphemism.

As for misgendering... Given the numbers of ftm transitioners who will need to undergo hysterectomies in order to avoid vaginal atrophy and other health problems arising from taking cross-sex hormones, the number of transmen becoming pregnant is going to be pretty rare. Furthermore, given that an mtf transitioner would have to come off all cross-sex hormones for the duration of pregnancy, I'm also not sure what the difference would be between a transman and a woman. And finally, I find it difficult to believe that someone with severe gender dysphoria would be fine going through pregnancy and childbirth but traumatised by being referred to as a woman.

It also very much annoys me that I have had to use the term 'anyone other than a female' in this post in an attempt not to have this message deleted.

Understood and you can request to be called a woman however we should respect transgender men and the choices they make. Calling human beings 'people' isnt erasing anything. It is just helping accept others. Just like with periods. It isn't feminine products, its menstrual products for those with periods. Its not erasing women as women are (obviously) still people.
rabbitwoman · 11/04/2021 07:23

I do think the solution would be to frame it in second person language - for instance :

'if you are pregnant, your partner may come with you to scan appointments'

'if you have heavy periods you may use these products'

'when you have had your baby, your partner may come and visit'

'your prostate will need an exam every five years'

'you will not be able to play women's sports if you have a penis'

Etc.....

ASugarr · 11/04/2021 07:26

@rabbitwoman

I do think the solution would be to frame it in second person language - for instance :

'if you are pregnant, your partner may come with you to scan appointments'

'if you have heavy periods you may use these products'

'when you have had your baby, your partner may come and visit'

'your prostate will need an exam every five years'

'you will not be able to play women's sports if you have a penis'

Etc.....

I agree (other than the last comment). But as someone who works in the sexual health field everything we tend to say is like that or is gender nutural.
SapphosRock · 11/04/2021 07:31

Doesn't really bother me. Women are people after all.

I'm a lesbian who has been pregnant twice and can assure you the NHS is extremely heteronormative when it comes to pregnancy language. Particularly when it comes to the baby's 'father' (the forms never have an option for donor). I therefore don't mind more inclusive language being used.

I've heard a lot of gripes about the word chestfeeding being used instead of breastfeeding for trans men too. As long as the context is purely for trans men then this doesn't bother me either. I had a baby last year and didn't hear the term used at all.

I have found Mumsnet to have lots of lesbian allies and so think it's a bit hypocritical to police inclusive language for trans people but not for lesbians. Inclusive language benefits all LGBTQ people starting families so I say let's embrace it.

Theunamedcat · 11/04/2021 07:31

Problem is there are still some "people" who don't recognise they have a prostate or cervix so your told people should book a cervical smear test or a prostate exam and they ignore it however if you frame it women over a certain age need to book a smear test men of a certain age need to book a prostate exam the uptake is higher they have proved it was higher when Australia (?) cut women out of there literature uptake dropped of course they only dropped women not men

ASugarr · 11/04/2021 07:32

@Theunamedcat

Problem is there are still some "people" who don't recognise they have a prostate or cervix so your told people should book a cervical smear test or a prostate exam and they ignore it however if you frame it women over a certain age need to book a smear test men of a certain age need to book a prostate exam the uptake is higher they have proved it was higher when Australia (?) cut women out of there literature uptake dropped of course they only dropped women not men
People are aware they have a prostate or cervix. Plus their medical records will state that.