Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

@WanderinWomb

Well, I would start with the fact that they are completely unrepresentative of the trans population in schools

What is your training, expertise or experience of the school population Robin? What specifically about these case studies that makes them unbelievable to you?

I am asked regularly to advise on such matters. It gives me a window into how such matters stand in schools. And to have four individuals who have desisted in the transition and none who have moved ahead with it would be incredible if it were a random sample. It doesnt reflect reality, it reflects how those who have produced the document would wish matters to be. The same is true of the teacher quotes in the 'guidance', which are completely unrepresentative of the (apparetly random) selection of schools I interact with. It does the case that teenage transitioners should be treated with some care (with which I have some sympathy) no favours to paint the picture in a single hue.

There has been no shame or loss of status in admitting he has AGP.

People need to read more trans widows stories to understand it's consequences.

In my now pretty extensive experience, admissions of AGP tend to be aimed at minimising it.

September 2020 Department for Education guidance.

'Plan your relationships, sex and health curriculum'
(extract)
"We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on working together to safeguard children." (continues)

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

So disappointing realizing all this. Real change will not come until this level of entitlement changes. It's women and children who suffer, always.

I am asked regularly to advise on such matters.

I thought you are an employment lawyer?

I am asked regularly to advise on such matters. It gives me a window into how such matters stand in schools.

There have been several instances of selective seeking of opinion from some sources and not others to inform decisions with wide-ranging consequences - the ONS and the Census is a striking instance of that.

That is why governance and commitment to transparency are boring but relevant when it comes to seeking expert input.

What do any of us get from posting here though?

Hopefully parents/carers of schoolchildren and women who work in schools who have read this thread will be better aware of the possible Safeguarding implications should a male teacher (who is a member of NASUWT) disclose to SLT that he is is "some sort of woman", has a transgender or dual role identity etc.

Well, I would start with the fact that they are completely unrepresentative of the trans population in schools.

So it's an opinion, with no evidence of the claim made?

What is your training, expertise or experience of the school population Robin?

I am asked regularly to advise on such matters

To clarify, you are saying that your training expertise and experience only came after you were regularly asked to advise on these matters.

Am very interested in this process.
Why would any school contact someone in your profession to advise them, are you part of a group that a school would have heard of and reached out to for advice or did you introduce yourself to education organisations as a potential advisor? Would love to know the process .

I know lots of people with huge amounts of educational/safeguarding experience in relevant professions. None have been contacted to advise schools.

PS are you still claiming that the TT case studies were "invented"?

I think this article is pertinent to the schools question. I know people take offense over Quillette but I have no idea why and I'm NOT interested.

The content is relevant to the schools aspect of this thread, although it is an American group of parents.

quillette.com/2021/04/02/when-sons-become-daughters-parents-of-transitioning-boys-speak-out-on-their-own-suffering/

"The parents simply cannot get their sons’ therapists to deal with comorbidities: in particular, autism spectrum disorders, ADHD, and poor communicative and social skills, often coupled with an extremely high intelligence, which leaves parents unable to find schooling that can cater to their sons’ needs. In many cases, the boys have fixated on the prospect of sex reassignment, yet seem unwilling to engage in conversation about other options. When one son is confronted with some stubborn, genetic truth that he just can’t overturn, he answers that it is “mere biology” "

I think this tendency to for schools to seek expertise from middle-aged women on teenage girl's gender issues is ill-advised and incomprehensible.

What possible insight can older trans women have on the interior life of teenage girls?

I realise teenage boys may have gender issues too, but the girls far outnumber the boys. I'd be more comfortable if there were more middle-aged trans men advising schools as at least they'd have more understanding of the trauma of puberty for girls in a sexist society.

I think it's perhaps a little unfair to expect Hayton to engage with questions on a thread started by someone else, when I'm sure it's clear that this is a feminist board which needs to prioritise women, and not a platform for their viewpoint. A bit damned if you do, damned if you don't tbh. Perhaps posting upthread was unwise

When someone is in the public eye with national columns and very high profile international video interviews in which to express themself and explain motivations in detail, is quite something to see them appear on a feminist board on chat forum for parents to post so soon on a thread where they are being discussed.

If one half of a well known marriage is reading here to notice when being discussed then the other half of same marriage may well be here reading.
I feel so deeply for SH and it would be great if she was the half invited to speak at WPUK and consult and influence union policies.

@unwashedanddazed

I think this tendency to for schools to seek expertise from middle-aged women on teenage girl's gender issues is ill-advised and incomprehensible.

What possible insight can older trans women have on the interior life of teenage girls?

I realise teenage boys may have gender issues too, but the girls far outnumber the boys. I'd be more comfortable if there were more middle-aged trans men advising schools as at least they'd have more understanding of the trauma of puberty for girls in a sexist society.

I wouldn't. I would expect someone with a wider view of learning difficulties, psychological and mental health problems as well as expertise in the educational environment. At least educational psychologists.

@WanderinWomb

PS are you still claiming that the TT case studies were "invented"?

It's quite extraordinary, but rather understandable, how much unfounded criticism Transgender Trend seems to inspire.

Stephanie Davis Arai who runs it was shortlisted for the John Maddox prize.

The description of which is:

The John Maddox Prize recognises the work of individuals who promote science and evidence, advancing the public discussion around difficult topics despite challenges or hostility.

Science and evidence. In the face of hostility.

There are many people I agree with on a few points and disagree with on most others. We are so unsupported is natural to seek allies everywhere and label people as allies when they aren't. It is women's voices that need centring and amplifying.

Yes. In general, but especially on a feminism board.

@TinselAngel

I am asked regularly to advise on such matters.

I thought you are an employment lawyer?

Employment and discrimination, principally.

No expertise then.
Where is your evidence that the case studies are invented?

@TheShadowyFeminist

Do you have proof the case studies are made up? I'm assuming (given your profession) you'd not be making such a claim without evidence.

Well, they are either invented, or very carefully selected and do not represent the many (by my anecdotal count the vast majority of) folk who have transitioned successfully and happily. TT has a particular view and it should be open about that.

May be relevant....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4211743-New-long-term-Canadian-study-following-boys-with-gender-identity-disorder-examining-disistance-rates?reverse=1

So, again, absolutely no evidence whatsoever of claims made, stated as 'fact'.

And not an education expert either.

Figures.

Anecdote versus science and evidence.

Oh, I know who you are now, Robin. You worked with the trans woman who was a journalist and tried to sue for discrimination when, post-transition, she found she was paid less, not listened to and passed over for promotion. It was as if she had absolutely no idea about how women are treated in the media at all.

She wasn't being discriminated against because she was being treated equal to the other women, in a way that was a bit shit.

I'd really like that sort of information to be taught in schools. Womanhood is not all lipstick and heels, most of it is just bit shit.

Well, they are either invented, or very carefully selected and do not represent the many (by my anecdotal count the vast majority of) folk who have transitioned successfully and happily. TT has a particular view and it should be open about that.

So you don't actually have any evidence, just your own speculation, based on your own "particular view".

TT has a particular view and it should be open about that.

"Transgender Trend – Who Are We?
We are an organisation of parents, professionals and academics based in the UK who are concerned about the current trend to diagnose children as transgender, including the unprecedented number of teenage girls suddenly self-identifying as ‘trans’ (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria or ROGD). We are also concerned about legislation which places transgender rights above the right to safety for girls and young women in public toilets and changing rooms along with fairness for girls in sport.

We have no religious or political affiliation. We come from diverse backgrounds, and our team includes teachers and safeguarding professionals, academics and parents, some of whom were themselves extreme gender non-conforming children and adolescents, some whose own children have self-diagnosed as ‘trans’ and some who know supportive trans adults who are also questioning recent theories of ‘transgenderism.’ Unfortunately because of the current climate our team members have to remain anonymous for the protection of their children or their jobs.

Why ‘Transgender Trend’?
Parents were telling us that this was the search term they were using to find alternative information about the sudden phenomenon of ‘transgender children’, as the only information they could find online came from transgender lobby groups. Our goal was to collate evidence-based research and studies to help explain the sudden upwards trend of referrals of children and adolescents to the Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS), a trend which is reflected in the US, Canada, Australia and throughout Europe.

We are concerned that the increased public awareness of transgender issues has led to parents worrying unnecessarily about normal childhood behaviours. We wanted to create a site which balanced the sudden slew of cheerleading media stories with some research and facts which challenge the prevailing acceptance of an ideology which is new, untested, and invariably based on personal belief systems.

We also want to provide information on legislation regarding the use of public toilets, bathrooms and changing rooms for parents who are concerned about the child protection and safeguarding issues this raises.

Our work is voluntary, non-profit and unpaid, so we rely on personal donations to keep going. Our work includes research, travel to events, letter-writing, media interviews, consultancy, press releases, speaking and meeting with legislators and policy-makers and creating and publishing resources."

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/