Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

Thanks R0, not motivated by concern for women but concern that trans people were overreaching and it was going to come back to bite them.

1. I do not want to falsify my birth certificate, which is an accurate record of my birth.
I don't understand this, DH has female markers on other legal identity documents, passport and driving licence, apparently false info on those not an issue?

2. Neither do I want our marriage certificate to be changed. If I was granted a GRC, our marriage certificate would need to be changed to show that we were a same-sex couple who had been married in a register office.

I think this is where reality hits, Stephanie would have had to agree to her marriage changing to be under the same sex marriage act, instead of the marriage act they were actually married under.
Everything else DH could do without SH's involvement.

I don't understand this, DH has female markers on other legal identity documents, passport and driving licence, apparently false info on those not an issue?

As anyone working with children and an awareness of Safeguarding and Child Protection should be aware, the primary identification documents are the passport and DBS certificate. Any male social worker, doctor, teacher, care worker etc who has changed and keeps incorrect sex 'female' markers on these important documents risks compromising / undermining the Safeguarding frameworks intended to protect girls and women within their place of work.

@StillAFemale

Out of interest in the last few years does anyone recall Debbie coming come to a thread and actually responded to the questions asked? Because as I waste my time checking to see if there’s any answers I’m reminded I’ve done this before and I dont remember ever seeing any answers.

Sometimes. Hayton has posted earlier in the thread. In my experience, only if the questions aren't challenging.

2. Neither do I want our marriage certificate to be changed. If I was granted a GRC, our marriage certificate would need to be changed to show that we were a same-sex couple who had been married in a register office.

I think this is where reality hits, Stephanie would have had to agree to her marriage changing to be under the same sex marriage act, instead of the marriage act they were actually married under.
Everything else DH could do without SH's involvement.

Straight Spouse interview transcript
(extract)
Kristen: Mmm. And so Stephanie, I've got a question for you and this is coming from the minds of listeners. I know it because I've heard it and so it's kind of a difficult question. But first off do you consider yourself a lesbian? That's a very sort of political question and a personal one at the same time. And how has this impacted your sense of your sexuality, your identity and the second half of that question is, do you miss being in a relationship with a man?

Stephanie: And to the first bit, do I consider myself a lesbian? No, I think what it has made me realize though is how innate our sexuality is, it's given me a much greater understanding of the LGB community, that it isn't that easy just to switch his sexuality and I am not a lesbian and I can't switch it, because it would be easier if I could. So that's the first answer.

The second answer. Do I miss being in a relationship with a man? Yes, I do. That is a grief to me but not big enough to say, 'Well, actually I'm going to get divorced and get out there and have a look'. Debbie is my best friend and I think at the moment that's, that's my choice. That makes it sound like I'm going to change it. But no, that is that is a choice. Yes. I do miss that kind of relationship. But I've also usually got on with men far better than women. So I actually have a number of male friends and so I can have that friendship, even if I don't have that intimate relationship" (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?pg=2

27 November 2020
NASUWT evidence to the House of Commons
Women and Equalities Select Committee:

(extract)
"Spousal consent provisions within the GRA
28.The NASUWT supports the right and freedom of the individual to
exercise their human rights without the consent of others. If no medical certificate is required to obtain legal gender recognition, then spousal consent is also unnecessary. Self-declaration implies that the decision lies with the individual; therefore, this would be negated by adding a layer of consent elsewhere.

29.The NASUWT also believes that spousal consent gives the spouse inappropriate power and risks issues of coercive control, which is a criminal offence under Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act 2015.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17380/pdf/

Thanks R0, not motivated by concern for women but concern that trans people were overreaching and it was going to come back to bite them.

Afaik Hayton has generally been upfront on that - it's not unreasonable that a trans male will prioritise trans concerns. Hayton's more rational and scientific approach means that there will be some synergies with GC feminists.... the 'we all believe in gravity' syndrome.
I think it's perhaps a little unfair to expect Hayton to engage with questions on a thread started by someone else, when I'm sure it's clear that this is a feminist board which needs to prioritise women, and not a platform for their viewpoint. A bit damned if you do, damned if you don't tbh. Perhaps posting upthread was unwise (though Haytons one interjection on a deleted thread, correcting an inaccurate jibe from a trans person was fair play)

Thanks R0, not motivated by concern for women but concern that trans people were overreaching and it was going to come back to bite them.

Afaik Hayton has generally been upfront on that - it's not unreasonable that a trans male will prioritise trans concerns. Hayton's more rational and scientific approach means that there will be some synergies with GC feminists.... the 'we all believe in gravity' syndrome.
I think it's perhaps a little unfair to expect Hayton to engage with questions on a thread started by someone else, when I'm sure it's clear that this is a feminist board which needs to prioritise women, and not a platform for their viewpoint. A bit damned if you do, damned if you don't tbh. Perhaps posting upthread was unwise (though Haytons one interjection on a deleted thread, correcting an inaccurate jibe from a trans person was fair play)

Apols for double post. May not have been worth saying once!

A quick post about passport and driving licence.

The sex-marker on these can be changed on the basis of self-ID, no GRC required. Both, passport in particular, are commonly used to establish identity. As R0 has already stated, this seriously undermines safeguarding, where risk assessment involves establishing identity and sex, and a passport is used for this purpose.

That passports can be changed on the basis of self-ID was the crux of the Fair Play judicial review regarding the guidance for Q3 in the Census.

Hayton's more rational and scientific approach means that there will be some synergies with GC feminists

The fact that a person identifies or encourages others to identify their position as "rational and scientific" does not in itself make it so.

I would strongly encourage those who are concerned for the welfare of children and women to apply their own rational and scientific evaluation. Confirmation bias can be a powerful influence, so too wishful thinking.

rational and scientific

In what way?

More rational and scientific than those who claim to be female. A comparator not an absolute, that's all.

@ErrolTheDragon

More rational and scientific than those who claim to be female. A comparator not an absolute, that's all.

The least irrational of two irrational positions?

If hayton doesn't claim to be female, why does he have female on his passport?

Is he just saying one thing and doing another?

What I would say is that Dr Hayton did not start this thread and is under no obligation to reply to us on here whatsoever. They also use their real name which none of us does on here. I have in the past but am honestly too fearful to do now.
I am not saying #bekind but I don't think we can expect replies when we're anonymously posting.

Clymene I realise Debbie posted earlier in the thread but even then didn’t actually answer the ques asked

Mn753 I appreciate they are under no obligation to reply, some of us have our own theory about what they get from these threads but it’s a theory we’re not allowed to state here

Early on when I was more naive I used to think Debbie was a helpful voice but now I’m more aware of the different ways people manipulate other people I now think they use the pretence of being on women’s side to use us to push for what is best for Debbie and frankly they are doing very nicely out of it.

I actually think Dr Hayton has been pretty explicit that speaking up has never been about defending women's interests. Perhaps the mistake is that women have misinterpreted those actions as supportive of women's rights to single sex spaces when that has never been the case, nor has Hayton even made a secret of that fact.

I think more than anything Hayton demonstrates why the GRA is such a weasel-worded piece of legislation that has been, and continues to be, deeply harmful to women.

What do any of us get from posting here though? It feels great when someone agrees and horrible when they don't. I disagreed with the original posts about it being a great interview - and I don't think the content supports the position most of us take on here, but Dr Hayton is perfectly entitled to their own opinion and actions as they see fit. I do actually think it's brave to talk openly about agp, very few people are willing to admit this and I certainly would not want to share intimate details like this.

@DebbieInBirmingham

Readers of the thread may be interested in the Schools Guidance that I wrote for the TES in 2019: debbiehayton.com/2019/06/19/supporting-transgender-students-what-you-need-to-know/ I reviewed the other guidance and came to the conclusion that, "In short, school leaders who wish to be fully informed and stay within the law and best practice may wish to consider the Transgender Trend guide when formulating local policy."

I still think that, two years later.
Debbie Hayton

That would be the TT 'guidance' with four invented 'case studies' all of which end in detransition. Completely unrealistic hubris.

Do you have proof the case studies are made up? I'm assuming (given your profession) you'd not be making such a claim without evidence.

I do actually think it's brave to talk openly about agp, very few people are willing to admit this and I certainly would not want to share intimate details like this.

It's not brave to talk about a fetish when the fetish gives celebrity status. It's the reason he gets interviewed, gets articles published, and advises on union policies.

There has been no shame or loss of status in admitting he has AGP.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Do you have proof the case studies are made up? I'm assuming (given your profession) you'd not be making such a claim without evidence.

When I consulted the guide, I see that 3 used their own names and the 4th preferred a pseudonym.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Do you have proof the case studies are made up? I'm assuming (given your profession) you'd not be making such a claim without evidence.

Well, I would start with the fact that they are completely unrepresentative of the trans population in schools.

I won't comment on the individual transpeople on this thread or other specific transpeople who have spoken out about concerns re childhood transitioning, terrible surgical outcomes and the violent threats from TRAs.

It is always worth keeping to the very front of our minds that they are advocating for themselves and for other transpeople like themselves. Nothing wrong with that at all, any group can advocate for its members. It's good to see some discussion with nuance and without death threats, let's not be too grovelling though.

Transsexuals of the old school style (who were the drivers who spent decades getting is into this mess), polite charming sex-accepting transgender people and even some detranstioners are believers in a position antethical to feminism specifically and gender criticism in general.

There are many people I agree with on a few points and disagree with on most others. We are so unsupported is natural to seek allies everywhere and label people as allies when they aren't. It is women's voices that need centring and amplifying.

Well, I would start with the fact that they are completely unrepresentative of the trans population in schools

What is your training, expertise or experience of the school population Robin? What specifically about these case studies that makes them unbelievable to you?