Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

How does one get anecdotal evidence from children if you don't work in that area?

"Well, they are either invented, or very carefully selected and do not represent the many (by my anecdotal count the vast majority of) folk who have transitioned successfully and happily. TT has a particular view and it should be open about that."

I think Transgender Trend is very open about their particular view. The clue is in the name.

@Mn753

How does one get anecdotal evidence from children if you don't work in that area?

Whereas Stephanie has said she gets literally hundreds upon hundreds of emails every week, has done for years. From children and parents of children.

She was also accepted by the judge in the Keira Bell case as an intervener, based on the evidence she contributed.

I imagine then body of evidence she has was not considered 'anecdotal' by the judges.

I would anticipate that @RobinMoiraWhite was fully supportive of the NASUWT 'Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges, Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders' (discussed previously in the thread)

It pertains to the employment rights / conditions for teaching staff.

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

@Clymene

I actually think Dr Hayton has been pretty explicit that speaking up has never been about defending women's interests. Perhaps the mistake is that women have misinterpreted those actions as supportive of women's rights to single sex spaces when that has never been the case, nor has Hayton even made a secret of that fact.

I think more than anything Hayton demonstrates why the GRA is such a weasel-worded piece of legislation that has been, and continues to be, deeply harmful to women.

Readers of this thread may be interested in the 'Repeal The GRA' website. The clear focus of articles there is safeguarding and the rights of women and children.

'The Argument for Repeal'
(extract)
The many negative impacts on women and girls were not properly considered or scrutinised.

Sex and gender have been confused in the drafting of the GRA. Human beings cannot change sex and the law should not pretend that they can.

Legal documents such as birth certificates are a matter of record and should not be changed.

Single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010, which protect women’s rights to privacy, dignity and safety have been weakened by this sex/gender confusion. Sex-based legal safeguards should never be undermined by other laws.

History about specific medical interventions is a privacy right, but misrepresenting one’s birth sex should not be. This is particularly important given that more than 95% of violent and sexual offending is committed by men and most of the victims of sexual offending are women and children.

We believe the very concept of living in a 'gender role' to be sexist, regressive and limiting for everybody." (continues)
www.repealthegra.org/the-argument-for-repeal

Single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010, which protect women’s rights to privacy, dignity and safety have been weakened by this sex/gender confusion. Sex-based legal safeguards should never be undermined by other laws.

This is an excellent point.

Ereshkigalangcleg It is indeed. Another article on the site examines this further:

'A Safeguarding Nightmare'
(extract)
We see and object to the dire impact that the GRA has had on the maintenance of sex and aged based safeguards in the UK. Women, as the majority in matters of caring, are more easily attuned to risk prevention. We know that almost anyone can present a risk to a vulnerable person but it is far more likely to be a man who commits sexual or violent offences. Allowing men to hide their sex is the worst safeguarding fail imaginable. Safeguarding is about managing risk and men (yes, yes, we know, not all of them) present risk. The most vulnerable people in our society are women, children, old people, prisoners (yes, really), those with severe mental health issues or physical disabilities, and those living in poverty. Safeguarding protocols are absolutely fundamental for the protection of those that need it most. It is unconscionable that the GRA functions to obscure risk. (continues)

We have seen many abuse scandals in the UK and the common denominator in all of them is always a failure to safeguard or apply safeguarding protocols without fear or favour. The GRA undermines safeguarding in a particularly insidious way. We are tired of hearing about how these failures led to atrocities and we want to see safeguarding front and centre in public policy. It is not good enough to react with moral outrage after the event and for politicians to wring their hands and say how could we have known? We need everyone to be aware of safeguarding fails the moment they happen and before they are sufficiently embedded for the next scandal to take root (continues)

www.repealthegra.org/a-safeguarding-nightmare

@TheShadowyFeminist

Well, I would start with the fact that they are completely unrepresentative of the trans population in schools.

So it's an opinion, with no evidence of the claim made?

AKA, I don't like these conclusions, so I'm going to say they're fake.

We believe the very concept of living in a 'gender role' to be sexist, regressive and limiting for everybody.

For the two transwomen who have posted on this thread, their transition seems to be mainly about 'living in a gender role'. Nothing that I have seen either of them state publicly indicates that it is purely about hatred of their male bodies (which is what I originally understood gender dysphoria to be - it didn't occur to me that people would feel the need to change their bodies just so that they could wear certain clothes or have certain interests).

Debbie has recently admitted that his transition was due to autogynephilia. Yet Debbie has not been willing to request that NASUWT remove the guidance which states:

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

If this male teacher is also driven by autogynephilia, this guidance states that all the other teachers have to participate in his fetish, and that female teachers are expected to extend this participation to allowing this person into their toilets, where they should be able to have a male-free space, not one which is being invaded by a male who is aroused by doing so. Nobody should be forced to participate in someone else's fetish in this way.

I'd also like to know how a male teacher attends an event 'as a woman'. Is this like a fancy dress party where he puts on a costume?

"as a woman" It's just so offensive.

Woman is not a costume.

There can't be a safety argument for a male teacher dressed en femme, to use the ladies toilets at a staff party, so what is the justification?

Robin also seems to see 'woman' as a costume. Here's an interview from 2011.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-tried-very-hard-to-be-male-but-it-just-didnt-work-out-nt8lk5cbxrf

It starts:
That Sunday’s car-boot sale was going to be something of a rite of passage for Robin White. “I’m getting rid of all the remaining evidence of my maleness — suits, shirts, shoes,” she says.

Then:
When The Times met White two months ago, he [as he then was] wore the usual barrister’s garb of striped suit. He had grown his hair beyond its normal short cut and wore nail varnish. White, who lives in a small Dorset town, at that point was a woman only at weekends. “It gets a bit tiring removing all the varnish for each Monday.”

So the 'woman costume' includes longer hair and nail varnish. But some women have short hair and some men have long hair. And I haven't worn nail varnish since my teens (a long time ago).

And how is someone 'a woman only at weekends'?

Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish.

@TinselAngel

There can't be a safety argument for a male teacher dressed en femme, to use the ladies toilets at a staff party, so what is the justification?

With Debbie's later admission of autogynephilia, I think it's obvious why that was included in the guidance. I presume the other people involved in producing it were either of a similar inclination or somewhat naive.

'I do actually think it's brave to talk openly about agp, very few people are willing to admit this and I certainly would not want to share intimate details like this.

transcript from Triggernometry Podcast

(extract)
DH "Right well I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for 25 years. I live in Birmingham. I teach, I teach in the West Midlands. I probably wouldn't be sitting here though if i hadn't transitioned 10 years ago" (continues)

KK "and what led you to transition?

DH "Mental health, a mental health crisis really. I'd had issues with
my, well issues with my gender. I've sometimes described it but don't try and push me on what that actually means. But I knew I had psychological issues with this from when I was about three years old. But, managed to, as many other people do. You manage to keep it in check, get on with life, grow up you know, get married, have kids" (continues)

Dr Katie Alcock (Senior lecturer, Developmental Psychology Lancaster University) article on language acquisition and child development.

May 2019 'Young children, reality, sex and gender'
(extract)
"Well, this research has been going on for a loooong time. All the studies I’m going to talk about are really robust — well replicated — this means that lots of researchers have found the same thing time and time again. We have known about some related aspects of children’s thinking since the 1920s or earlier and some of the main, older studies in this area are from the 1960s. This is not a flash in the pan. (continues)

Nevertheless, it takes children some time to work out both whether they themselves are a girl or a boy, and that both they and others cannot change sex. Working out which they are themselves happens earlier, and is based in all the studies that have been done on physical appearance and stereotypes. Have a look at what James, aged 3, has to say on the matter:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BFDgO_y9cc&t=62s

James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair." (continues)

Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things.

So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are (continues)

So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too. This doesn’t just apply to sex, it applies to pretty much everything. (continues)

But of course children have their own preferences and influences and they like doing what they like doing even if that happens to be something their parents think isn’t “right” for their sex. It’s called personality. So, even when children realise that boys are “supposed” to like cars and wear jeans and have short hair, they may not actually want to do that if they are a boy.

Children know what they like. When society and the world tells them that the things they like are those that boys like — but they have been told in words that they are a girl — well, that’s easy. They already know that having short hair makes you into a boy. They know that playing with cars makes you into a boy. So it’s easy! Boy all the way. And their version of the world, at their age, means that changing sex is totally possible." (continues)
medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f

I find it very concerning that so many teachers are either unaware or choose to ignore such well established facts about child development and language acquisition. Francis Foster is also a qualified teacher and has worked in both primary and secondary education.

NB reposted from Wed 07-Apr-21 15:43 with agreed edit to remove a distracting sentence.

Just de-lurking to say that all the evidence links and constructive analysis of what is going on is really appreciated.

After Dr Hayton's article was published in which Dr Hayton stated that AGP was at least in part the motivation behind transitioning and that this was described as 'harmless', I wondered how I would have felt as a teenage girl in one of Dr Hayton's classes. Or the mother of such a girl.

My conclusion was that I would have felt extremely distressed and violated.

Anyone who thinks it harmless should have a look here:

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

I object to being dragged into someone's sexual experience.

Agreed. It's an important nuance that we can't control how somebody thinks/looks at us and what they make of it - but we can object to being coerced into it participation without our consent.

Its amazing how easily that coercion was introduced in to staff policy and by extension onto school children.

I wondered how I would have felt as a teenage girl in one of Dr Hayton's classes. Or the mother of such a girl.

It also raises questions about the message to teenage boys for whom male teachers (at their best) are role models. What exactly would 11-16 year old boys understand when told their male teacher was returning in a "female role" and what would they recognise to be the difference/s between that teacher from the end of one term and the beginning of the next except certain clothes, make up and possibly the appearance of breasts?

@OldCrone

Robin also seems to see 'woman' as a costume. Here's an interview from 2011.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-tried-very-hard-to-be-male-but-it-just-didnt-work-out-nt8lk5cbxrf

It starts:
That Sunday’s car-boot sale was going to be something of a rite of passage for Robin White. “I’m getting rid of all the remaining evidence of my maleness — suits, shirts, shoes,” she says.

Then:
When The Times met White two months ago, he [as he then was] wore the usual barrister’s garb of striped suit. He had grown his hair beyond its normal short cut and wore nail varnish. White, who lives in a small Dorset town, at that point was a woman only at weekends. “It gets a bit tiring removing all the varnish for each Monday.”

So the 'woman costume' includes longer hair and nail varnish. But some women have short hair and some men have long hair. And I haven't worn nail varnish since my teens (a long time ago).

And how is someone 'a woman only at weekends'?

Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish.

Fair question.

I have considerable doubts about Debbie Hayton's trans identification. Debbie has now written extensively about how tranistion was a mistake and (by implication) how unhappy she is with the state she finds herself in. I feel very sorry for her, as I would for anyone who appears to have made poor life choices. But then, that's the price of freedom, I suppose.

In my case AGP / fetish has played no part in my life, I had a strong sense of my female self since before my teenage years, I struggled against transition for many years but now live a happier and more grounded life as 'me'. And yes, in our society there are some differences between how men and women present that are an expression of sex/gender. I dont much care what folk think of me but I do like my pronouns respected, and I am priviledged to make a professional and charitable contribution to life.

What exactly would 11-16 year old boys understand

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. It's difficult to acculturate teenage boys into appropriate behaviour and the rate of rape and sexual assault in schools is a contemporary scandal.

How would open involvement of others in one's preferred sexual experience in a setting like a school mitigate this in any way rather than enforce it?

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

What exactly would 11-16 year old boys understand

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. It's difficult to acculturate teenage boys into appropriate behaviour and the rate of rape and sexual assault in schools is a contemporary scandal.

How would open involvement of others in one's preferred sexual experience in a setting like a school mitigate this in any way rather than enforce it?

It should be impossible not to recognise the risk of reinforcement of the sexism which is recognised as being endemic in schools and to the detriment of girls and female teaching staff (linked previously in thread).

Adults in schools and colleges have a key responsibility to model the behaviours and values that they hope to see in pupils.

In my case AGP / fetish has played no part in my life, I had a strong sense of my female self since before my teenage years, I struggled against transition for many years but now live a happier and more grounded life as 'me'

Fascinating, Robin.

Any chance you could parse out that teenage 'strong sense of my female self' without having a teenage female reproductive system?