Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

You know, testing you know, the way you're projecting yourself to society

There's an obvious contraction with these 'tests'. Lots of male transpeople say that male transpeople have been welcomed into women's toilets of years and years without issues.

How is it simultaneously possible to use that question as a test of passing and believe they are welcomed into the space anyway as a transperson?

It seems more likely to draw attention to oneself, or to cause an awkward dilemma for someone else, than be a way to test passing.

The 'women's toilet test' was set for male patients by the early gender doctors.

The doctors who offered 'transition' to sex-dysphoric men required them to use female spaces & services for two years as part of their 'real life test' along with wearing stereotypically feminine clothes.

Gender doctors provided letters of authorisation for male patients during this time in case they were questioned.

Whilst many saw the doctors role as 'gatekeepers' of desired surgery/medical intervention, the doctors also acted unilaterally as gatekeepers to women's spaces & services. They opened the gate without women's consent. The impact on girls and women was not considered.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark just another impressed reader here, wanting to say how much your words on this thread express my feelings perfectly. And, clearly, the feelings of many, many others on this board.

You could compile the posts from this thread into a fantastic essay that someone like Glinner might host. Or you may have your own outlet, obviously - you write well enough to!

The 'women's toilet test' was set for male patients by the early gender doctors.

As a fifth year and sixth former working in a public library, I had cross dressers/men in feminine clothes/male transpeople asking me where the loo was. The same people would ask week after week.

Good to know I was part of a medical experiment.

Thank-you TalkingToLangClegInTheDark

Did Robin deign to reply?

Oh, who am I kidding, of course not.

The 'women's toilet test' was set for male patients by the early gender doctors.

I well recall a (then) medical student chum who was comfortable about being gay and repeatedly informed his psychiatrist (who thought otherwise) that that was not why he was consulting him for support. (Very complex family history.) The psychiatrist nonetheless insisted that the student should have sex with a young woman who was convinced that she was my chum's girlfriend (absolutely nobody who saw them together would think this - it was entirely an illusion that she was alone in experiencing/cherishing).

I don't think it crossed the (male) psychiatrist's mind for a moment that the self-styled girlfriend might have a strong adverse reaction to:
achieving her goal and having sex with the person of desire;
said person of desire turning around to say, "I've had heterosexual intercourse with you and found it as non-rewarding as I'd anticipated, given my sexual orientation. Thank you for being a support human with no personal needs so I'm now able to check off this box and can report it to my psychiatrist and persuade him to move along".

[quote R0wantrees]'Last March, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, and Intersex Association (known as ILGA in its short form) co-sponsored a declaration which included a demand for the reform of laws which limit the "recognition" of an adolescent’s "agency" to consent to sex. An "adolescent," by international standards, is a youth of 10-19 years of age.

Also in Spring 2020, 'NASUWT International Solidarity' magazine reported on the EI (Education International) Conference held the previous July in Thailand. This includes outline of Dr Hayton's speech which secured the NASUWT proposal (page 15):

'LGBTI Justice Fight Continues'
"There is still a great deal of work to be done on securing equal rights and justice for all LGBTI people, the NASUWT told delegates at EI World Congress.
NASUWT National Executive Member Debbie Hayton said teachers played a key role in “ensuring that schools, colleges and higher education institutions are free from the hatred, prejudice and discrimination of LGBTI people.”
Ms Hayton said LGBTI rights were fundamental human rights, enshrined in international laws.
“These rights are non-negotiable,” she told delegates.
But she said that, despite this, lesbians, gay men, bisexual, trans and intersex people are exposed to discrimination, violence and intimidation, based on irrational fear, prejudice and hatred of LGBTI people.

The NASUWT secured commitments by EI affiliates worldwide to:

(i) support member organisations in providing information, support and training to challenge homophobia, biphobia and transphobia;
(ii) highlight the need for global and national actions to ensure that all teaching curricula are LGBTI-inclusive;
(iii) include LGBTI equality in all campaigns for the right to quality education for all children, young people and adults;
(iv) actively support LGBTI campaigning organisations such as the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA) and its member organisations in securing equal rights for LGBTI people around the world; (continues)

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/e50a99f1-4dd4-43a9-b4ac5be3f9aa20f2.pdf[/quote]
UK Teaching Unions affiliated to EI who therefore in 2019 committed to, "actively support LGBTI campaigning organisations such as the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA) and its member organisations in securing equal rights for LGBTI people around the world" following the NASUWT motion moved by Dr Hayton:

Official Name : Educational Institute of Scotland
Acronym : EIS
Website :www.eis.org.uk+

Official Name : NASUWT - The Teachers' Union
Acronym : NASUWT
Website :www.nasuwt.org.uk+

Official Name : National Education Union
Acronym : NEU
Website :neu.org.uk+

Official Name : Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association
Acronym : SSTA
Website :ssta.org.uk+

Official Name : Ulster Teachers' Union
Acronym : UTU-UK
Website :www.utu.edu+

Official Name : University and College Union
Acronym : UCU

www.ei-ie.org/en/

Lesbian & Gay News article:
'The UN IGLA Stonewall and the Women's Caucus, Jo Bartosch investigates calls for the removal of laws prohibiting sex with or between adolescents'

April 12th 2021
(extract)
"In 2020, on the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Fourth World Conference on Women, 200 NGOs signed a so-called ‘feminist declaration’ which calls for the removal of laws prohibiting sex with or between adolescents, the abolition of laws prohibiting of certain forms of violence against women and the full decriminalisation of prostitution.

Here, couched in the language of human rights, is a call for a reduction in the age of consent.

ILGA World promoted the document describing it as “an alternative to the political declaration that outlines the steps necessary to achieve gender equality.” ILGA World is a global federation of more than 1,600 organisations from over 150 countries and territories “campaigning for lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and intersex human rights.” It counts amongst its UK membership a host of unions, Stonewall, Mermaids and even the British Council." (continues)
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/04/the-un-ilga-stonewall-and-the-womens-caucus-jo-bartosch-investigates-calls-for-the-removal-of-laws-prohibiting-sex-with-or-between-adolescents/

@Helleofabore

OldCrone

Yes. That blog post is one that is very enlightening. Every time I see it, it reinforces just how little I think my life experience resembles their’s.

Always good to take a piece of writing out of conext to make a (bad) point.

That dates, of course, from my period of transition - not an experience that non-trans folk have to endure, but which did have its moments of hilarity. Now more than a decade ago.

But carry on re-inforcing your prejudices if it makes you happy.

Always good to take a piece of writing out of conext to make a (bad) point.

Is it taking it 'out of context' to use the entire blog as an illustration of how little you understand about women's lives?

The threat of being chucked out of your union for the few teachers prepared to challenge the trans orthodoxy might be the last nail in the coffin. The spreading of the word about an alternative to a union, Edapt, is important I think.

If you are only in the union for the legal backup then there is Edapt who are just legal services for teachers without the politics, are competitively priced and have an offer on of 10% off for new members until April 21st. www.edapt.org.uk/blog/2021/04/easter-offer-for-new-subscribers/

I am not a teacher but I know teachers who have moved to Edapt. Only losing members will make teaching unions change. Whilst most teachers are women I wonder if most unions activists are men.

Whilst most teachers are women I wonder if most unions activists are men.

An very unscientific sidelines observation of activists is that they may perhaps be more likely to be people without caring responsibilities who can easily go off to conferences etc.

but which did have its moments of hilarity I'm sure it did, Robin. And, I hope you are happier now that you have transitioned, I am sympathetic towards people who have gender issues, just not sympathetic enough to agree that male people's needs for inclusion trump those of vulnerable women.

make a (bad) point?
The point Robin - surely we don't have to spell this out? - is that women do not, on the whole, find unsolicited intimate contact hilarious. Do you really not understand that?

@Floisme

make a (bad) point? The point Robin - surely we don't have to spell this out? - is that women do not, on the whole, find unsolicited intimate contact hilarious. Do you really not understand that?

But carry on re-inforcing your prejudices if it makes you happy.

Apparently it's 'prejudice' - women not affirming the experiences of those who claim 'woman' as their gender ID is that inconvenient reality that keeps getting in the way of 'acceptance without exception'. Hence it can only be 'prejudice'. Not a reflection of what life is actually like for women. Nope, just 'prejudice'.
😒

@ErrolTheDragon

Whilst most teachers are women I wonder if most unions activists are men.

An very unscientific sidelines observation of activists is that they may perhaps be more likely to be people without caring responsibilities who can easily go off to conferences etc.

Exactly.

So much more eloquent than than anything I could have said but says so much about how I’ve felt reading this thread

Thank-you TalkingToLangClegInTheDark

Agree. Fab post!

ErrolTheDragon
Whilst most teachers are women I wonder if most unions activists are men.

An very unscientific sidelines observation of activists is that they may perhaps be more likely to be people without caring responsibilities who can easily go off to conferences etc.

Exactly.

I’d bet money on it.

Whilst most teachers are women I wonder if most unions activists are men.

Certainly in my teaching career of 20 years, I've worked with one male head, one deputy head, one teacher, 3 male tas.

All the union reps I've ever spoken to or known of in the neu have been male.

Not very scientific but yep, I reckon accurate.

Always good to take a piece of writing out of conext to make a (bad) point.

That dates, of course, from my period of transition - not an experience that non-trans folk have to endure, but which did have its moments of hilarity. Now more than a decade ago.

But carry on re-inforcing your prejudices if it makes you happy.

I don't believe I have taken this out of context at all. In fact, I feel it accurately references the attitude that I perceive from many of your posts. You have a great many experiences that I simply will not ever have. I can appreciate those.

It does not mean that you have much by the way of shared experience with me or any other female though.

For instance, an unwanted, even accidental intimate touch would certainly mean I would have a very different reaction than you.

Is unwanted attention seen as a positive by trans women? I seem to recall Paris Green saying that being objectified and "eye fucked" by men during a week on Ibiza was a thing of great fun.

I remember a man who eye-fucked my 12 year old daughter in Asda. It wasn't a welcome experience.

It was Paris Lees, I think.

A man once grabbed my breasts on the street in broad daylight. No, unwanted intimate touch is not fucking welcome. I am viscerally repulsed by people who fetishise incidents like that happening to them.

Oh good grief, Assassinated yes, you are right.

Paris Green was convicted of a particularly nasty murder and is housed in the female wing of an Edinburgh jail, despite repeatedly having sex with female inmates after being asked nicely to stop doing that. Paris Green has, AFAIK, made no public statement on the joy of being treated like a piece of meat by men - that was Paris Lees who only has a conviction for robbery.

Thanks for spotting that, I'm sorry for any offence I accidentally caused to either Paris.

Robin

And, once again in my view, there is little difference between suggesting exclusion of trans people from the spaces relevant to their identification, and the exclusions previous applied to gay people and people of different races

Males are excluded from female single sex spaces because while most men do not present a threat to women, some men do. And males commit the vast majority of sex and violent crimes. And of course there are the important issues of privacy and dignity. And males are, on average, bigger and stronger than females. Its not a fair fight.

Transwomen are male sex. So the question is - why should they be allowed into female single sex spaces when no other male is? And who is a transwoman? Is a man who simply self-identifies as a woman, now so completely different from a man such that they can be treated as though they were women, even including free access to female single sex spaces? And how can women tell the difference between a self identified transwoman and a man?

These are the questions we need honest conversation about.

I don’t know any woman who would enjoy a man bumping into her from behind, much less wish that the encounter involved sexual assault.

Just not sympathetic enough to agree that male people's needs for inclusion trump those of vulnerable women

It is not just that some women are especially vulnerable, of course, but that women and girls as a whole value and require single sex spaces for reasons of the privacy and dignity of their sex.