Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

@Mn753

Hmm but Dr Hayton talks about testing people by asking which bathroom they should go in, to see if they 'passed'.

I'd much rather listen to Dr Hayton's wife.

That said, a sensible voice is always welcome

Someone on Ovarit has posted this link to an joint interview with Debbie and Stephanie which is interesting.

www.straightspouse.org/voices-podcast/s3-ep-18-how-gender-transition-impacts-a-couple/

@Mn753

Hmm but Dr Hayton talks about testing people by asking which bathroom they should go in, to see if they 'passed'.

I'd much rather listen to Dr Hayton's wife.

That said, a sensible voice is always welcome

Someone on Ovarit has posted this link to an joint interview with Debbie and Stephanie which is interesting.

www.straightspouse.org/voices-podcast/s3-ep-18-how-gender-transition-impacts-a-couple/

Yes that's the interview which has a transcript in the thread linked earlier OP. You are right, it is interesting.

Isn’t that the interview where the Haytons say that DH originally promised to leave if Stephanie asked him to, but when she did ask he decided to ‘push the boundaries’ or something and refused?

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Isn’t that the interview where the Haytons say that DH originally promised to leave if Stephanie asked him to, but when she did ask he decided to ‘push the boundaries’ or something and refused?

Yes. There were lots of 'pushing boundaries'. Refusing to leave the family home was one of them. As was not actually going ahead with 'transitioning'. As I believe Stephanie put it: she was 'told', it was not a discussion.

If anybody finds it difficult to imagine what it feels like to live in the midst of that sort of dynamic, I'd invite them to read the trans widows threads, where there are plenty of other examples.

It was a hard listen in quite a few places - a very difficult time for the family and where Stephanie seems to have done the bulk of the heavy lifting. I am enormously grateful still though for the support of DH for women's rights. And at the end DH said her opinion on things shifts as she discusses stuff with Stephanie. There were some nice moments - when they talked about their shared history and being each other's best friends. More than some more conventional marriages I guess. And I liked that they managed it with boundaries especially for their kids - like DH not wearing skirts at home and being ok with being called Dad. DH seems to make it less about the costume (stereotypes etc) at least and in that it is less about the "performance" of femininity. But hard to listen to at times? - definitely.

@R0wantrees

What’s it called when someone won’t answer a direct question with a direct answer, won’t even acknowledge that particular question has been asked?

Is there a term for that? Not exactly stonewalling... or gaslighting... but somewhere in that area.

Stonelighting? Gaswalling?

Can anyone help me out here?

Ghosting?
'Ghosting' like 'stonewalling' is a common pattern of controlling behaviour.
People are left hanging, waiting for a response.

I think this is it, R0. It is a form of ghosting, isn’t it?

Yes. There were lots of 'pushing boundaries'. Refusing to leave the family home was one of them. As was not actually going ahead with 'transitioning'. As I believe Stephanie put it: she was 'told', it was not a discussion.

Poor Stephanie.

Out of interest in the last few years does anyone recall Debbie coming come to a thread and actually responded to the questions asked? Because as I waste my time checking to see if there’s any answers I’m reminded I’ve done this before and I dont remember ever seeing any answers.

I'm still stuck by the difference in tone in the trigger interviews with a male and a female guest, regardless of that person's gender identity.

And, I'm struggling to think of any female guest who puts an image of themselves naked in a shower into any interview.

"passing" is less to do with lipstick and underwear than many male people think, or rather, perhaps female people are harder to convince than male people.

I'm now always far more impressed by men if they quote women, to show their allyship. Or promote women, instead of talking about themselves. Agree with this, and am reflecting on how many male voices, regardless of gender identity, who do this. So far, I've got Andy Murray, David Davies MP, a couple of comedians, a couple of gay guys, a couple of Lords, a couple of journalists and a couple of actors. There have to be more, surely?

Andy Murray believes male people who identify as women are women.

Big disappointment after he's been a vocal feminist ally in the past.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Andy Murray believes male people who identify as women are women.

Big disappointment after he's been a vocal feminist ally in the past.

Nooooooooo.

Bugger.

It was a hard listen in quite a few places - a very difficult time for the family and where Stephanie seems to have done the bulk of the heavy lifting. I am enormously grateful still though for the support of DH for women's rights.

How easily women's struggles are dismissed on a feminist forum. It still shocks me, as a trans widow, even after several years of it.

No, really?

Oh man

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Andy Murray believes male people who identify as women are women.

Big disappointment after he's been a vocal feminist ally in the past.

Damn. In fact damn bugger arsehole piss shit fart.

I ❤️ed Andy Murray for so many things but if he's gone all anti women to believe twaw then I withdraw my support. Come on, Andy, you're better than this. You have strong female role models in your life

Re Andy Murray, to clarify, I don’t think he’s made any statement on the subject as such, rather it’s other references he’s made and the fact he hasn’t spoken out in defence of women athletes on this issue.

The orthopaedic surgeon who operated on his hip and got him back playing again is trans, and he always refers to this person as if they were female. So I don’t know for sure that he really believes “TWAW” or if he just refers to “TW” as W.

Obviously I’m happy for him that he found a surgeon who helped him so much and I suppose in that situation he's hardly going to use correct-sex pronouns for them, but it just grates so badly to hear him talk about “she” and “her” when talking about his surgery.

Especially when this is yet another case of a male person who has carved out a stellar career, as a male, in an overwhelmingly male dominated profession, with all the privilege and advantage that being male entails, including having married and fathered children, but has then transitioned later in life.

Referring to this person as “she” and “her” to my mind obscures the realities of the challenges faced by actual women in these professions, and particularly the fact that there are very few female orthopaedic surgeons. And those there are may well have had to make choices and sacrifices not demanded of their male counterparts.

To my mind it bolsters the whole narrative that some male people actually “are” women, which I cannot see as anything but a fundamentally toxic, misogynistic narrative.

And I think it is notable that, given his readiness to speak out on other issues regarding women in sport, he has stayed silent on the issue of biologically male trans people competing in women’s sports. Completely silent, as far as I know; not a word of support for Martina and Sharron et al, though if somebody knows otherwise I’d be glad to hear it.

The only thing he has said is in the context of backing calls for Margaret Court’s name to be removed from the arena at Melbourne Park. He has said he doesn’t think “her values are what tennis stands for”. Now Court has opposed same-sex marriage but has also said this re trans athletes: You know with that LGBT, they'll wish they never put the T on the end of it because, particularly in women's sports, they're going to have so many problems.

So Murray has been quite canny in not actually saying which of her comments he finds offensive, but he would seem to include this one. He is certainly not standing up for the right of women to have female only sports. I personally think we can take it as read that he is on the side of #bekind, and I think he’s a huge disappointment on this level.

It all starts with pronouns.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/48662873

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/17/andy-murray-backs-calls-to-remove-margaret-courts-name-from-tennis-arena

www.skysports.com/tennis/news/31870/11897941/margaret-court-hits-out-at-transgender-athletes-in-controversial-sermon

So far, I've got Andy Murray, David Davies MP, a couple of comedians, a couple of gay guys, a couple of Lords, a couple of journalists and a couple of actors

I've never forgotten David Davies running for the Conservative leadership campaign in 2005 posing with women in T-shirts that said "Double D" on the front.

He later tried to disassociate himself from them, but I find it hard to see him as a feminist ally.

So far, I've got Andy Murray, David Davies MP, a couple of comedians, a couple of gay guys, a couple of Lords, a couple of journalists and a couple of actors

James Kirkup is great for crediting women - and even crediting FWR!

I've never forgotten David Davies running for the Conservative leadership campaign in 2005 posing with women in T-shirts that said "Double D" on the front

That’s the other David Davies. David TC Davies, a backbench Tory MP has been outspoken and supportive on this for years. He’s the one who helped Venice arrange her meeting at the Houses of Parliament back in 2018.

As for Dr D Hayton, I’m not sure why they present themselves as such a feminist ally whilst still doing all they can to undermine us. The brainwashing video that Stephanie and Debbie did for The Church of England recently showed that Debbie wants to be part of a push to make women even more irrelevant to the church. (It’s a slog to watch it, you have to sign up and play/skip through all the videos in order to - they’re the second half of video 5 - but it is worth the effort).

My heart breaks for Stephanie. Debbie has ensured she is excluded from a place where she would get unending support. Support, which if you watch her distress in the videos filmed recently for the CofE, it’s very clear she needs.

@EdgeOfACoin

So far, I've got Andy Murray, David Davies MP, a couple of comedians, a couple of gay guys, a couple of Lords, a couple of journalists and a couple of actors

I've never forgotten David Davies running for the Conservative leadership campaign in 2005 posing with women in T-shirts that said "Double D" on the front.

He later tried to disassociate himself from them, but I find it hard to see him as a feminist ally.

The "Double D" was David Davis MP (Haltemprice and Howden) rather than David Davies MP (Monmouth).

Relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396459-David-Davies-MP-speaks-out-about-harrassment-calls-for-stop-to-GRA-reform-urgent-review-involving-womens-groups

I am enormously grateful still though for the support of DH for women's rights.

Remind me, what exactly has DH done for women's rights?

Women's rights are for women.

Support for women's rights begins at home.

Support for women's rights begins at home.

Nail on head.

(And also safeguarding.)

As for Dr D Hayton, I’m not sure why they present themselves as such a feminist ally whilst still doing all they can to undermine us.

October 2020 Extract from the Straight Spouse interview transcript:

Dr D Hayton makes explicit the motivations for campaigning, "It seems to be the most polarized and toxic political debate I've ever known, but it's something which is personal to me. It was four years ago, the government in the UK decided that they wanted to change the law so that we'd move from a system where people can change their sex, their legal sex, that's the sex marked on your birth certificate, from needing a doctor's diagnosis and medical reports to basically being a free-for-all. At the time, I thought that was a bad idea because the credibility in the system came from those checks and balances.

So I started campaigning. I felt that this change would make trans people less secure in society, it would damage our position in society and basically make people trust us less I felt, so I didn't think it was a good idea. So I started campaigning on it and over the next year or so, I formed alliances with different people"

Dr Hayton then explains that he identified women's groups & those concerned with Safeguarding children as those he would make alliances with.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

FWR DebbieInBirmingham 12-Jan-21
I have no GRC and I have no intention of getting one. Three main reasons.

1. I do not want to falsify my birth certificate, which is an accurate record of my birth.
2. Neither do I want our marriage certificate to be changed. If I was granted a GRC, our marriage certificate would need to be changed to show that we were a same-sex couple who had been married in a register office. We were actually married in a church, but churches don't do same-sex marriages. We would even be able to change the date of our marriage (for consistency) but we wouldn't be compelled to do that. It feels like a dogs dinner.
3. Why bother? As others have said, I can change everything apart from my birth certificate, marriage certificate (neither of which I want to change) and certain pensions records without a GRC. Trans people might complain about Corbett v Corbett (that put a stop to the previous informal process that changed birth certificates) but it left in place the right to change passports, driving licences, bank records, medical records (!!!), and the rest with - at most - a letter from your GP. We had effective Self-ID in 1970, and nobody else realised. How good was that?

The reason I got involved in this campaign from 2016 was that I did realise and I figured that we were shooting ourselves in the foot. Or more likely Stonewall UK and others were shooting us in the foot for reasons I did not understand at the time).

My thinking has developed since then but I still view this entire campaign for legal Self-ID as a massive own goal."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4132641-Why-do-you-think-so-few-people-have-applied-for-acquired-a-GRC?msgid=103559930#103559930

March 2021 From 'The Mess We're In' for Trans Day of Visibility.
(tidied up Youtube transcript)

Graham Linehan "Let's start with you Debbie. You are you know, you're also someone who I would consider an ally to women. I know you've had trouble from both sides in this debate and you're in a very difficult position which I think you've always handled with great dignity but what brought you to this position? This very difficult position that you're now in, I think it was to protect trans rights.

Debbie Hayton "Actually Graham it was. I saw this lobby which was appearing banging this self id drum and my initial concern was that this would just seem like a mad crusade that would remove the credibility which we rely on as trans, as transsexual people in society and I looked at this five, six years, yeah five years ago now and it just looked to me to be completely insane what people were saying. So I opened my mouth and down came the outrage from from above"

Dr Maya Angelou
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.