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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transman Prinz Chiyo Gomes splits gay community: gay man accused of hate

311 replies

Shedbuilder · 30/03/2021 10:11

Prinz Chiyo is a transman who entered (and I'm told won, but can't confirm) the Mr Gay England competition last year:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-53936529

Chiyo has talked publicly about Chiyo's experience of sexual abuse from an early ago. Chiyo is also an icon among young girls who want to escape the burden of femininity and is celebrated on BBC's Newsbeat.

A gay man who tweets as Sheridan Sinclair recently wrote an article about Chiyo and why he objected to a someone who talks openly about their vagina and the fact they menstruate qualifying to compete in Mr Gay England. This has set off a Twitterstorm. Sheridan Sinclair has been forced to close his Twitter account and take down his article.

twitter.com/mrgayengland/status/1376101627959074821

Before he was shut down, Sheridan Sinclair pointed out that many gay men have spent large parts of their lives being told there's something wrong with them, that they should learn to love 'pussy', and that having Chiyo compete in Mr Gay England is homophobic.

Sheridan Sinclair has been reported to the police for hate crime and is expecting a visit from the rozzers this morning. Fair Cop, I hope he's been in touch with you.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/01/2022 16:39

Ba da boom and tish

[groans]

CompleteGinasaur · 10/01/2022 16:41

(And sorry again - forgot crappy punning ruins being a hideous viper...)

HirplesWithHaggis · 10/01/2022 16:45

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

It has occurred to me that we are ruining our image, here.

Aren't we supposed be hideous vipers?

Do have a mooch around the threads, Georgia. Do you like podcasts? I have found some helpful.

I am honestly moved to tears by the genuine kindness being shown to Georgia this afternoon. What a fantastic conversation to read.

Must bustle off to the kitchen to get about my domestic duties now.

Artichokeleaves · 10/01/2022 16:53

Oh please don't 'do better'! There really is no need to subordinate yourself, no one healthy is going to require that of a woman.

You commented that inclusivity can be difficult, which implies that its a situation of discomfort that needs time to shake down. I've worked in and around inclusion policy for decades, there are times when people just need to get used to change and I've supported it. This is not it.

But from that perspective I'll say:

a) if it were just a prudish/lack of experience thing, just forcing people to be uncomfortable or get out is not inclusion. It's never worked, it makes things worse, not better. Inclusion, actual inclusion, only works when the the main group is not made so uncomfortable and disrupted that the entering person stands out a mile, everyone is angry with them and sees them as the source of the change, and there has been clear delineation of who matters and is favoured and who isn't. If I'd ever engineered a situation like that and caused a mess like this I'd have been in trouble for it and rightly so, that's not successful inclusion, it's causing a major mess. And anyone who knows anything about inclusion knows about the proactive aspect and will have thought ahead with some sensitivity to 'this is going to cause a huge, massive mess and a lot of bad feeling and make this situation worse than it is already'. '#fail.

b) Inclusion is emphatically not inclusion when the entry of one group forces the exclusion of another.

c) Protected characteristics are not a hierarchy, and there are nine, not one. Inclusion means accessibility for all people with those characteristics. Not shoving out some characteristics to favour another. That's another #fail

d) The first duty of female resources is to be inclusive of all females. Without exception. It's a female space. This cannot be achieved in a mixed sex space. Therefore that female space has ceased to be inclusive. Or accessible. It's another #fail

Whoever told you this was inclusive sadly knew nothing at all about real and actual inclusion.

What we're left with is situations like the Hampstead Pool -

three pools: Male only (policed and kept male only), mixed sex, and women's which is also mixed sex. There is no female only pool now.

TQ+ people have three separate pools they may choose from. Some female swimmers who were regulars at the pools now have no pools accessible to them at all.

Brighton Rape Crisis Service: three separate services. Male only, LGBTQ+ only, and womens which is a mixed sex service. TW have three different groups from which they can select their best and most comfortable resource for support in their time of crisis.

Female people are having to fight legally for their right to any service at all as they cannot access the one and only service for women which is mixed sex.

This is not inclusion. This is not even basically fair. What this is, is male supremacism in action. It's not ok. Females are not a lesser species who should sacrifice for males. They're really not. Giving up everything for others is not a healthy thing for women to believe they have to do - which is why all over MN you will find women supporting each other to have more self esteem, to have a more healthy and balanced view of who they are and their relationship with others.

LondonWolf · 10/01/2022 16:59

I wish you’d stop the constant apologising and pledging to “do better”. Is this how The Youngsters have to communicate in order to avoid The SM Mob these days?

Datun · 10/01/2022 17:10

Yes inclusion seems to be some kind of magic bloody word. It really isn't.

Sexual orientation, that legally protected characteristic, is by its nature exclusionary. I'm heterosexual and I exclude all women from my dating pool.

We exclude tiny children from rides at Disney. We exclude men from going to class in a kindergarten. We exclude thousands of pupils from university on the basis of their exam results.

Human beings exclude all the bloody time.

Helleofabore · 10/01/2022 17:18

Absolutely Artichokeleaves

Once you see the discrepancy between what is really 'inclusion' vs what is said to be inclusion by lobby groups with a bias, you can never unsee it.

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:20

Mumsnet is the biggest gathering of women in history. Never before have hundreds of thousands of women gathered in one place, exchanging ideas, sharing experiences. It's immensely powerful.

No shit. You could plug it in and fire up the National Grid on a good day.

Yo Georgia, welcome to Mumsnet. I hope you find it useful.

As for the rest of you, what kind of a viper pit do you call this?! You're all just a big bunch of naice softies. Away and hand in your T-Rex suits immediately. Bear Bear Bear

HaroldMeeker · 10/01/2022 17:22

@Datun

Yes inclusion seems to be some kind of magic bloody word. It really isn't.

Sexual orientation, that legally protected characteristic, is by its nature exclusionary. I'm heterosexual and I exclude all women from my dating pool.

We exclude tiny children from rides at Disney. We exclude men from going to class in a kindergarten. We exclude thousands of pupils from university on the basis of their exam results.

Human beings exclude all the bloody time.

Seems so bloody obvious, doesn't it?
GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 17:26

@LondonWolf

I wish you’d stop the constant apologising and pledging to “do better”. Is this how The Youngsters have to communicate in order to avoid The SM Mob these days?
Sometimes yes !

We can be led to feel that our misunderstanding or understanding whichever way you want to look at it is incorrect sometimes (which of course is true in cases) my initial point here was just that communication is important and the need to do better should not always be expected as it isn’t needed

GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 17:30

I totally agree there thank you for the information.

That is something that I think needs to be addressed as a whole - as someone said earlier I thought I had magic power or something to that affect I definitely don’t I just want to speak up on these issues and see where that takes me.

GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 17:31

Can I keep mine a bit longer? Smile just for the memories? 😂

HaroldMeeker · 10/01/2022 17:31

We can be led to feel that our misunderstanding or understanding whichever way you want to look at it is incorrect sometimes

Pretty much a textbook definition of gaslighting. Persuading you to lower your boundarie,s against your better judgement, by convincing you that it's YOU that's wrong, that you've misunderstood, that they really didn't mean it like that, that you're overreacting....

My heart really does go out to the younger generation of females of all persuasions dealing with this kind of crap. You don't deserve this. It's unfair, it's outrageous and I'm absolutely furious on your behalf.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/01/2022 17:34

OP, I am working on RTFT now and would like to echo others in that from what I've read so far - stills but to go but wanted to chip in now - I can see you are sticking around and engaging. I'm really glad to see that Wink

Off to continue reading ...

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:35

My heart really does go out to the younger generation of females of all persuasions dealing with this kind of crap. You don't deserve this. It's unfair, it's outrageous and I'm absolutely furious on your behalf.

Yes. It's also a misrepresentation of what 'kindness' actually involves. Whenever the topic comes up I always think of finding miximatosis infected rabbits. If you left it to live, it would suffer and die a horrible death. The 'kind' thing to do was to bash it over the head and kill it as swiftly as possible.

Kindness is sometimes doing a difficult thing, an unpleasant thing or even something that others will attack you for. It needs courage and clear sight and thoughtfulness - blindly following diktats that are built on shifting sands and muddled ideologies is not 'kindness' - as a pp said, it's just compliance.

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:36

Georgia you can keep the dino suit if you give me a roar.

Alternatively, tell me to fuck off. Grin

titchy · 10/01/2022 17:37

I love this thread!

Young woman posts, gets arse handed to her, meekly apologises and promises to do better.

Instead of accepting her apology and making her run round the playing field 20 times as punishment MN says 'No! Don't apologise. Be yourself, have your own thoughts and stand up for what is important to you, not anyone else.'

@GeorgiaPass stay! Join in and maybe see if any of your friends are up for a robust debate here too?!

Helleofabore · 10/01/2022 17:38

We can be led to feel that our misunderstanding or understanding whichever way you want to look at it is incorrect sometimes (which of course is true in cases)

Of course it is true in some cases. But if someone is telling you that you are wrong, and you cannot see where you have gone wrong, don't suppress that intuitive feeling that something isn't making sense and that you are obviously the one in the wrong. I, personally, go looking for evidence now.

I say this, but of course, it was coming onto Mumsnet to try to understand what is happening females of all ages that made me see this was the best approach. No sacred groups, ever. Of any kind.

Sadly, even idols too often have clay feet.

OhHolyJesus · 10/01/2022 17:40

and the need to do better should not always be expected as it isn’t needed

Yes, you're right, it isn't needed. Speak plainly, express yourself as you wish but ensure that people understand the message you want to get across. If you have an honestly held opinion then share it and don't apologise. Explain why you think a certain way if asked in the way we have ever day conversations.

An example of plain speaking below:

You don't deserve this. It's unfair, it's outrageous and I'm absolutely furious on your behalf.

I am also furious on behalf of young females, everywhere, regardless of how they identify, that they be coerced into not being able to say what they think of fear of some kind of negative consequences or backlash.

The passion that you arrived here with Georgia that you used to defend your friend would be better channeled, in my view, to standing up for yourself, exercising your basic human right to freedom of thought, freedom of expression and free speech. All this is very much welcomed here.

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:48

freedom of thought, freedom of expression and free speech. All this is very much welcomed here.

no, it's not.

SpeverendRooner · 10/01/2022 17:50

I see the conversation has moved on and I'm a bit late with this comment, but I just wanted to note this by @GeorgiaPass: were I talking to a different group that included men and non binary or gender non conforming people? Others have already addressed the point about gender non-conformity, but FYI I'm a man and I read here. I would guess that I am not the only male lurker, although we're almost certainly outnumbered by women. So you are talking to a mixed sex audience, even if most of the posters are women. That will be true almost everywhere you go on the internet - lurkers vastly outnumber posters and don't always have the same demographics.

I wanted to comment on the "educate yourself" thing. It always seems to come as an instruction, with no recommendation of resources from which one can learn. That ought to be a red flag that it's not a genuine suggestion, but rather is being used as a conversation killer. It means that not only am I not prepared to justify my beliefs, but that I will put the burden of even finding where you can find out about my beliefs on your shoulders, and will regard it as a moral failing if you do not or can not find them or don't agree with what you find. It's a form of "shifting the burden of proof" fallacy, I think, where I make a claim (transpeople NEED xyz) but leave the task of supporting it to you.

Helleofabore · 10/01/2022 17:52

maybe see if any of your friends are up for a robust debate here too?!

sadly, we know that this might be fraught with danger for those relationships. We hear from many people just how terribly that goes.

You only have to look at this yougov survey to know how protective people are around friends on certain topics.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

A majority of Britons (57%) say they have, at least sometimes, found themselves stopping themselves from expressing their political or social views for fear of judgement or negative responses from others.

Women are also more likely to have held their tongue than men (62% vs 52%).

Indeed it follows on from this Frank Luntz's UK study mid 2021 that found:

-29 per cent have stopped talking to someone over something political they said — while 22 per cent have had someone shun them over their views.
-And some 53 per cent of 18 to 29-year-olds have even cancelled friendships because of pals’ views.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/01/2022 17:53

It is. And, as anyone, lurker or otherwise, can see, is not how we tend to work here. We may go too far the other way and drown you in links, data, information Smile

We also don't try to convince by emotion or force of character - if we can offer evidence we will.

GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 18:04

ROOOOOAAAAR

(I think that might actually translate to fuck off make of it what you will)

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