Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

[Skyliner001]

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

I fail to see how 'non-binary' is anything but rooted in sexist stereotypes: 'Women are like this; men are like this; I am not like either of those things so therefore I am non-binary'.

Exactly. The whole trans thing is rooted in wornout old stereotypes, but the non-binary one goes a step further. I'd have thought those who reject both male and female stereotypes would realise that they have come round to the standard feminist position.

But somehow enbies are rejecting the stereotypes in a special, better and totally unique way by, umm, sort of obeying them. Not saying "I'm a woman and I don't fit the stereotype, therefore the stereotype is wrong", but saying "I don't fit the stereotype, therefore I'm not a woman".

"The truth" as you see it, is not the truth that people actually educated on things see.

There's something to be said for not being rigidly certain your limited perspective is the correct one and questioning your own views, I quite agree, Hibari.

I'm actually educated on things though I am concerned they are the wrong things. What things do I lack education in? Please enlighten me.

Can you give some examples of these positive things?

Laws that say that you can't fire a woman because she gets pregnant.
Art and literature about about women
The tradition of having sex segregated sports or toilets
Traditions that say members of the community help new mothers

None of these are biology, they are all ways cultures respond to biological sex and reflect their experience of it. Which is why they can look quite different across time and place.

@Hibari

I think this above is an example of being unable to empathise with anyone who cares about the truth. So they've projected "fear" onto their empathy gap.

Quite the opposite. "The truth" as you see it, is not the truth that people actually educated on things see. You're mired down in ignorance and conspiracy and don't want to see anything outside of that.

So conceited.

@SmokedDuck

Can you give some examples of these positive things?

Laws that say that you can't fire a woman because she gets pregnant.
Art and literature about about women
The tradition of having sex segregated sports or toilets
Traditions that say members of the community help new mothers

None of these are biology, they are all ways cultures respond to biological sex and reflect their experience of it. Which is why they can look quite different across time and place.

Pregnancy is biological, so protection for pregnant women is due to sex, not gender.

Similarly, sports and toilets being sex segregated is due to sex, not gender because of the differences in male and female bodies.

Traditions about helping new mothers is just cultural. There might also be traditions about helping the elderly which is obviously nothing to do with gender (unless all the help is expected to come from women and girls).

My understanding of gender is that there is no real connection to biology, but there are assumptions or cultural practices which are based on their sex, but these could just as easily be reversed or not exist at all in different societies. But I'm not a social scientist so there may be something I haven't understood here.

Quite the opposite. "The truth" as you see it, is not the truth that people actually educated on things see. You're mired down in ignorance and conspiracy and don't want to see anything outside of that.

There was a chance to educate us, Hibari. How is a gender non-conforming woman different to a 'female at birth' who identifies as non-binary?

I don’t understand what you are not understanding Old Crone.

Sex refers to the biology of males and females.

Gender refers to the cultural treatment of men and women.

So any cultural practice aimed at women, whether positive or negative, is gendered.

Surely this is basic feminism?

@LibertyMole

I don’t understand what you are not understanding Old Crone.

Sex refers to the biology of males and females.

Gender refers to the cultural treatment of men and women.

So any cultural practice aimed at women, whether positive or negative, is gendered.

Surely this is basic feminism?

I was just making a distinction between biologically based cultural practices, and those which have no biological basis.

SmokedDuck's examples seemed to be mixing these up with no distinction between biologically based 'gendered' examples and those which have no basis in biology.

This is how I see it:
Sex dictates that mothers have to do all the breastfeeding.
Gender says that they also have to change all the nappies.

Does that help? Or this:

Sex is the reason for sex-segregated sports.
Gender is the reason for a women's literary prize.

I don’t think she is mixing them up.

On a feminist board surely we assume that our audience is able to understand that in some situations we treat women differently from men based on their biology? It goes without saying. Apart from people invested in the transgenderism ideology, everyone understands that we have maternity services for women because women give birth and that giving birth is biological but maternity services are cultural.

We have sex segregated sports because we believe in gender equality between the two sexes. To achieve gender equality we have to take into account sex differences.

But gender refers to cultural practices that take into account factual sex differences and those which do not.

Whether we provide women with adequate maternity services or leave them to die of birth injuries is a consequence of gendered access to healthcare services. It is a cultural and social outcome. It is a consequence of how society treats women.

I would find it hard to support and define my own feminism without being gender critical. I do accept however that some individuals feel more comfortable defining their own biological sex through conforming to specific gender stereotypes - belonging to a specific tribe through what they wear and how they perceive they should behave. I generally choose not to do this, but having grown up in a gendered society I do in small ways express myself in a gendered way. Sometimes I deeply resent others perceptions of my capabilities because of the way they conflate sex and gender.
I also believe that toxic gender definitions are partly at the root of why many trans people feel unhappy and unable to exist without formally identifying as the opposite sex. If only we could, as a society, work together to allow people to dress, live, and express themselves as individuals rather than keep coming up with a myriad of new gender definitions. But unequivocally I believe sex-based rights should not be muddled with an individual’s rights to express themselves however they wish.
I feel that over the past 60 years the women’s movement (in the West) has significantly changed women’s lives for the better on both a political and social level. As women’s rights have been won, part of society (let’s call it The Patriarchy) feels threatened and weakened, and I think it’s no accident that society (mainly fashion, the sex industry, and other commercial interests) have adapted to highlight gender (rather than sex) as the defining difference. I’d be interested to explore the reasons behind this and the harm that it does, unfortunately the trans debate makes this almost impossible.
I think the problem with the trans debate , is that feminism is now focussed on the threat to women (quite rightly) and there are many other important women’s issues around the world which are being side-lined. This is not the fault of gender-critical feminism.

‘I think the problem with the trans debate , is that feminism is now focussed on the threat to women (quite rightly) and there are many other important women’s issues around the world which are being side-lined. This is not the fault of gender-critical feminism.’

Yes. It’s preventing us from dealing with women’s rights.

Except it is central to EVERY one of those rights!

We can't deal with womens rights if we have no say about who is a woman. It is taking away the very basis of those rights. Women, female sex!

This looks good

But gender refers to cultural practices that take into account factual sex differences and those which do not.

Whether we provide women with adequate maternity services or leave them to die of birth injuries is a consequence of gendered access to healthcare services. It is a cultural and social outcome. It is a consequence of how society treats women.

This is a good example because it's about whether women get what is needed due to biology (sex), but it's decided on the basis of who is 'deserving' of adequate healthcare (gender).

But you could make a similar point about healthcare for other groups of people, such as those with disabilities or elderly people, without the need for two different terms corresponding to 'gender' and 'sex'. Why do we need two terms in this example for women, but not for people with disabilities or elderly people?

Thanks for engaging, because I think I'm getting a better understanding of why the term 'gender' is used in these contexts.

Then you understand it’s actually anyone

Quite the opposite. "The truth" as you see it, is not the truth that people actually educated on things see. You're mired down in ignorance and conspiracy and don't want to see anything outside of that.

So what is not true about the following?
1 It is impossible for human beings to change sex
2 There are two human sex classes, male and female
3 The human male is on average taller, stronger and faster than the average human female
4 Human females in most human cultures have been oppressed by human males.
5 Human males , no matter their gender identities share the same patterns of criminality.
6 Human males no matter their gender identities present the same danger to human females
7 Human males of all gender identities are much more likely to be dangerous and violent than human females.

I also can’t help wondering whether gender critical feminists actually have more in common with trans people, than the trans movement realise.
Both groups believe that their sex should not determine how they dress, behave, and want societal acceptance of themselves and rights and protections so they are not held back because of who they are.
However the fundamental issue is ‘what is gender?’ Many, many trans people are quietly clear on what their sex is, a small very vocal minority believe TWAW and TMAM. This is a really unhelpful sticking point, and prevents any useful dialogue. This is really not feminism’s issue, this needs exploring and resolving between trans people.
It is a fundamental difference in belief, and is the root cause of much pain for some of the trans people I know personally.

I strongly suspect in 50 years time we will look back at this time as the point gender stereotypes began ceasing to exist. As gender identities become increasing vague, complex and individualist the original binary view of gender expression becomes more and more out-dated, and all we will have left is biological sex differences.
I have no idea where this will leave today’s trans-identifying individuals. Hopefully ‘living their best lives’ without needing to express a specific gender identity.
But fundamentally, for those of us who don’t really believe in gender as an innate force, trans people are currently perpetuating gender difference - if you don’t believe in gender it is hard to conceive what a trans identity means.

Old crone, we do have two terms for the disabled, just like sex and gender.

It is called the social model of disability.

An impairment is what a person has (like sex) and disability is the social response to that (like gender).

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair

You are not alone. I'm similar to you.

@littlbrowndog

Then you understand it’s actually anyone

That is a perfect example of where gender is being used. The advert sounds promising. It says women and girls. Then read the detail and anyone can apply whatever gender/sex you are. If I was a young heterosexual or lesbian girl I would be too scared to sit on that panel. It will be dominated by non heterosexual and lesbian girls.

Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I've missed something, but this is a feminist board so how could someone be feminist and not gender critical?

Isn't feminism, by definition, the criticising of traditional female gender stereotypes and roles?

@FifteenToes

Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I've missed something, but this is a feminist board so how could someone be feminist and not gender critical?

Isn't feminism, by definition, the criticising of traditional female gender stereotypes and roles?

To some degree. There is more to feminism than dismantling gender stereotypes and gender roles, and I would argue that most feminists are not critical of women who choose to perform traditional gender roles as long as that is their personal choice rather than being imposed upon them. A woman who decides that being a SAHP for 10 years whilst rearing children is the best option for her family and something she wishes to do, is no less a feminist than someone whose male partner is carrying out that role. Feminism is about the factors that may force that decision to be made and it’s potential impact on the mother, such as a disparity in wages, and career progression, lack of suitable flexible childcare, cost of childcare, poor paternity provision. If I look at this in a gender critical way it is in identifying why structures and attitudes presume that is the norm and preference for all women. Forcing and discussing the use of trans-friendly language in the debate about mother’s healthcare and maternity rights detracts from the more important concerns about the provision for women’s rights and closes down any debate about the real gender issues surrounding child birth, health provision and child care.