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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

225 replies

Skyliner001 · 28/03/2021 13:06

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 29/03/2021 11:27

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board

Very few!

The reason being this is one of the few places that such discussions and meeting of minds is possible; hence the gathering effect.

ThatLibraryMiss · 29/03/2021 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

allmywhat · 29/03/2021 11:31

How are they breaking gender rules? Saying 'a male who looks, behaves and feels a certain way is actually a woman' is just reinforcing stereotypes about what being a woman is, stereotypes about how women appear, behave and feel.

My impression is that "men have penises" and "women give birth" are what TRAs conceive of as "gender rules" that are being daringly broken by their transgressiveness. I don't think they realise how dull they are. Rewriting the dictionary is a rubbish rebellion, but it's all they've got.

ArabellaScott · 29/03/2021 11:36

@WomanWithAWo

Actually *@ThatsShitTryHarder* I’m working on trying to open up people’s minds. Maybe free them from discriminatory views Smile
“‘We do not destroy the heretic because he resists us. . . . We convert him, we capture his inner mind, we reshape him.’”
Helleofabore · 29/03/2021 11:45

@Fraida

I will read the whole post BUT I am an feminist and gender critical in the sense I don’t agree with gender stereotypes however I am not trans critical. These two concepts are mutually exclusive in my opinion.
Fraida. I am interested in what you consider ‘trans critical’? Are you able to explain what you mean by this? I have not heard it used before.
Justhadathought · 29/03/2021 11:45

My favourite quote, at the moment, is this one from 1984, George Orwell:

The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect

ArabellaScott · 29/03/2021 11:46

@Justhadathought

My favourite quote, at the moment, is this one from 1984, George Orwell:

The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect

Oh, that is excellent. I think the SNP will be happy to adopt that.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/03/2021 11:51

Out of interest, and with no 'side' at all I promise, could you explain that a bit further?

Although I do appreciate that might come across as an unpleasant demand, feel free to ignore it Smile

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/03/2021 11:51

Sorry, that was to @Fraida

Thumpsquids · 29/03/2021 12:06

I've seen the 'victim' narrative played an awful lot over the last few years, and sadly, quite successfully. This idea that because a person can construct some wording or situation in which they might be seen as an 'oppressed minority' - oppressed by the scourges of, (take your pick: the police, white people, the gender critical, scientists, teachers, people with opposing political views, etc) that they warrant some special treatment. I'm not a fan of this tactic myself, but it's obviously pretty popular. Good ol' Post Modernism! Coincidentally, I see Foucault is lurking about again, posthumously. This seems to have come hand in hand with an attempt to change language, education, long fought-for rights, societies, and I find it a little troubling. It's not simply the schoolyard bullying of 'You disagree with my claim, therefore you must be hate-filled, evil and stopped/cancelled'. That is clearly pathetic and juvenile, but if it didn't work, people would cease using it. They have not; we see that even here. It's also the attempt to paint biological facts as 'phobic', truth as lies and questions as attacks. I keep hearing that this is a phase and will pass soon, but some significant damage has been done, surely. Nuance has been lost. My hope is that it can find its way back to us soon, so that it becomes clear that we, as a society, can be mindful and supportive of those suffering from dysphoria, of any flavour, whilst also seeking new or tested ways to manage harm, as we do with any other difficulty, that it is possible to support the rights of women and girls whilst also encouraging diversity and humanity, and that discourse is hugely important when seeking resolutions to challenges, so that the lobby groups screaming that, 'There is no debate!' can slip into an ugly past, where they belong.

EdgeOfACoin · 29/03/2021 12:47

Excellent points. Wonder if you'll get a response to them. I'd be keen to know the non-GC argument against this

I'm not going to hold my breath, adviceseeking.

Cowbells · 29/03/2021 17:44

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Funny isn't it? I posted, entirely in good faith, explaining why I am GC but still maintain firm friendships with a couple of trans individuals and what happens? Fuck all!

Nobody demanding women here 'be nice' has the common decency to even acknowledge what I posted. WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF?

That even the most GC feminist can have trans friends? Why does that bother you?

This happens again and again. Posters arrive on the feminist boards and range from AMA to Let me educate you. But never ever reply to fair questions. I'm GC. I have trans friends, I have trans clients. I know I have no hatred towards trans people and lots of concern for their social safety and physical well being.

But I do exercise the right to be GC and to defend women's hard won status in society. And I do think that trans women are transwomen not women. They will always have a different life experience, biological make up and medical needs from women. Different not unequal.

Different but certainly not hated unless they are misogynist bullies using self ID to access safe spaces for nefarious purposes in which case the trans community should be the first to turf them out for misrepresenting the majority of trans people.

LibertyMole · 29/03/2021 18:06

Hi OP.

I am not entirely critical of gender.

I don’t believe the state should promote sex roles, and indeed we’re signed up to conventions that ban such stereotyping and restrictions by the state. So I am gender critical up to a point.

But I believe there will always be some gender differences because women have different experiences due to pregnancy and breastfeeding etc, and a women’s culture will always grow up around that. And that is a gendered culture.

ThatsShitTryHarder · 29/03/2021 18:08

But I believe there will always be some gender differences because women have different experiences due to pregnancy and breastfeeding etc, and a women’s culture will always grow up around that. And that is a gendered culture.

That difference is due to sex, not gender.

LibertyMole · 29/03/2021 18:12

Gender refers to cultural differences. It is a cultural response to sex. The culture around breastfeeding varies between cultures.

As someone else said, sex is the why, gender is the how.

ThatsShitTryHarder · 29/03/2021 18:18

@LibertyMole

Gender refers to cultural differences. It is a cultural response to sex. The culture around breastfeeding varies between cultures.

As someone else said, sex is the why, gender is the how.

Gender isn’t a cultural response to sex. It’s the expectations placed on women because of their sex. That’s why feminism is opposed to gender ideology.

I have no problem with cultural differences. I do have a problem with gender ideology.

SmokedDuck · 29/03/2021 19:47

@ThatsShitTryHarder

But I believe there will always be some gender differences because women have different experiences due to pregnancy and breastfeeding etc, and a women’s culture will always grow up around that. And that is a gendered culture.

That difference is due to sex, not gender.

If it wasn't attached to sex, it wouldn't be gender, but culture is not biological sex.

And actually yes, a definition of gender as encultured ideas and structures around sex is a perfectly valid definition. The version which says that gender is only the bad encultured ideas about sex runs into a lot of problems right away, particularly with regard to mechanism, but it also leads to begging the question in many cases.

adviceseekingnamechanger · 29/03/2021 20:02

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@adviceseekingnamechanger You are probably quite right! I hope that us having this exchange shines more light on that![/quote]
Apparently not as my post was deleted as I described some posters using what I considered an inoffensive term which I didn't realise contravenes MN guidelines on upholding a civil debate. I do fully support MN's effort to maintain this as a civil and v important debate and will not refer to any posters as a TRA again. I mention the term here so others can avoid a similar error. My apologies for any offence; I do not wish to be uncivil at all.

But what I had said was, I find it strange that non-GC posters seem to post things like 'I bet I'll be torn to shreds now', 'right I understand I'm unwelcome here' and 'GC feminists want no debate' when there are hundreds of women politely and calmly responding to their threads and opinions, not ignoring them, not making death/rape threats and asking for clarity. It never seems to be acknowledged and instead we just get written off as horrendous bigots for a rational and important debate.

LibertyMole · 29/03/2021 20:29

Gender isn’t a cultural response to sex. It’s the expectations placed on women because of their sex.”

That’s the same thing. Expectations are a cultural response.

LibertyMole · 29/03/2021 20:31

‘And actually yes, a definition of gender as encultured ideas and structures around sex is a perfectly valid definition. The version which says that gender is only the bad encultured ideas about sex runs into a lot of problems right away, particularly with regard to mechanism, but it also leads to begging the question in many cases.‘

Yes, exactly.

SmokedDuck · 29/03/2021 21:41

Maybe it's worth pointing out that the use of the word gender, apart from in linguistics, comes out of sociology and social anthropology, not out of feminism. It doesn't just mean stereotypes or negative stereotypes. It's much broader and would include many things that people see as really positive.

Hibari · 29/03/2021 21:51

I think this above is an example of being unable to empathise with anyone who cares about the truth. So they've projected "fear" onto their empathy gap.

Quite the opposite. "The truth" as you see it, is not the truth that people actually educated on things see. You're mired down in ignorance and conspiracy and don't want to see anything outside of that.

Scepticaltank · 29/03/2021 21:55

Actually educated on "things". Ok, that make sense.

OldCrone · 29/03/2021 22:19

@SmokedDuck

Maybe it's worth pointing out that the use of the word gender, apart from in linguistics, comes out of sociology and social anthropology, not out of feminism. It doesn't just mean stereotypes or negative stereotypes. It's much broader and would include many things that people see as really positive.
Can you give some examples of these positive things?
Jillly · 29/03/2021 22:26

Which 'things' should we be educated about?
The truth is, transwomen are transwomen.
Women are adult human females, a man can never be a woman, no matter how much he wishes or believes it.
I'm sorry if that hurts but the truth sometimes does.
I dont believe in your religion.

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