Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

[Skyliner001]

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

[Anovaneway]

I’m guessing some GC forum members are now reporting posts because they want to... check something.

Amirite?

[ArabellaScott]

Oh, so, if a feminist isn't 'gender critical', does that mean she is supportive of gender roles, which used to be known as stereotypes? That makes a lot of sense, OP, thanks for clarifying.

[AuntieMatter]

How would you suggest reconciling feminism with valuing gender? I don't really get how that would work.

[NotTerfNorCis]

Sorry haven't RTFT but - 'gender critical' means two things.

It means challenging gender stereotypes (women should be nurses, not doctors etc.). All feminists should be gender critical in that sense.

It also means challenging the very recent idea that everyone has an innate sense of gender identity which is more significant in determining what they are than their biological sex. Some people call themselves feminists while accepting the idea of inborn gender identity.

Personally I'm gender critical in both senses.

[OldCrone]

It also means challenging the very recent idea that everyone has an innate sense of gender identity which is more significant in determining what they are than their biological sex. Some people call themselves feminists while accepting the idea of inborn gender identity.

But isn't a belief in gender identity based on gender stereotypes? So you can't challenge gender stereotypes if you believe in gender identity because gender identity is based on gender stereotypes. If it's not based on stereotypes, what is a gender identity, and is it actually anything to do with gender?

[LangClegsInSpace]

Hi OP, I'm not 'gender critical', I want to abolish gender altogether

I think everyone would be happier if gender was not a thing.

[NotTerfNorCis]

It's confusing, because genderists differentiate between 'gender identity' and 'gender expression'. So technically a male person could identify as female while continuing to follow male stereotypes.

People with dysphoria think they're in the wrong body, it's nothing to do with stereotypes, but from what I can tell you don't need dysphoria now to be trans or non-binary.

We need a none-gender critical person to tell us. @Skyliner001 ?

[OldCrone]

It's confusing, because genderists differentiate between 'gender identity' and 'gender expression'.

Like a transwoman who persistently behaves like a man by mansplaining and being unable to see things from a female perspective, but has a female 'gender expression' (wearing dresses and make up)?

I think male behaviour and female 'gender expression' is more common than the other way round. Male people who identify as women rarely behave like women however they present.

[NotTerfNorCis]

That's socialization for you.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

just lol at a thread on the feminist board essentially asking if there's anyone who isn't a feminist out there!

[Cowbells]

Me! I only played with pink fairy dolls as a child and the best day of my life was my white wedding when my dad gave me to the new man who would make my life complete. That's why I hang out on the feminist boards. To see if I can find like minded rainbow tinted souls.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

Have you had much luck cowbells

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Surely a gender-critical feminist is like a vegan who doesn’t eat animal products? No need for the description. It’s included in the word ‘feminist’ or ‘vegan’.

[LangClegsInSpace]

@RagzReturnsRebooted - I kind of disagree with this, surely women (adult human females) are opressed because of our biology (sex) as we can be raped, impregnated, we bear and raise children, we are smaller (generally, not me) and tend to be physically weaker than men. Gender can certainly be a way to reinforce that, but if I chose to present with a male gender (somehow) I would still experience those things.

I consider myself gender critical in the sense that I don't agree with gender stereotypes of anything like clothes, jobs but I don't think getting rid of all of that would magically solve all the problems of sexual inequalities.

You are using a very narrow definition of gender. It's not just how we dress or present ourselves, what jobs we're encouraged to go for etc.

We are oppressed because we are female. That's the 'why', as TheInebriati said. We all seem to agree on that. I hope we also all agree that female is not an abstract concept. Everybody knows that new human beings grow in female bodies and not male bodies. Everybody also knows that men are generally larger and more physically powerful than women.

Gender is the 'how' and it operates far wider than clothing choices, beauty practices and job choices.

Rape is gender.
How we treat preganant women is gender.
How we treat mothers is gender.
FGM is gender.
Child marriage is gender.
Female infanticide is gender.
Inheritance is gender.
'Sex work' is gender.
Surrogacy is gender.
Porn is gender.
Capitalism is gender.
Trans ideology is gender.
Marriage is gender.

Bla bla bla. I could add and add to this list.

Of course you can't just opt out of all of this by 'presenting with a male gender' (). Men know what a woman is.

[WomanWithAWo]

I’m here

[LangClegsInSpace]

You are uncritical of gender, WomanWithAWo? Please tell us more!

What definition of 'gender' are you using and why are you accepting and uncritical of gender?

[Flapjak]

Transwoman are women, and transmen are men, and non binary identities are valid ......is that what you mean by not gender critical?

[TheABC]

I get very pissed off about gender, from the pay gap to FGM to the objectification of women in porn.

I am not gender-critical. These days it's full-on raging gender abolitionist.

[WomanWithAWo]

Actually @ThatsShitTryHarder I’m working on trying to open up people’s minds. Maybe free them from discriminatory views

[Cowbells]

@WomanWithAWo

Actually *@ThatsShitTryHarder* I’m working on trying to open up people’s minds. Maybe free them from discriminatory views

Well on the other thread you were endorsing adult male fury against his mother for daring to call Eddie Izzard a male when Izzard himself says he is sometimes male and sometimes female, as the fancy takes him. That is not what I'd call freeing people from discriminatory views. It is entrenching misogyny and the silencing of women, dressed up in fancy new woke-speak in the hope that women will mistake it for liberty. Very young ones do and a lot of middle aged ones who have put up with misogyny for way too long just see the dangers. That doesn't mean we hate trans people. It doesn't mean we are bigoted against trans people. It does mean we recognise trans is not the same as biological. That's not hatred. That's recognition.

[LangClegsInSpace]

@WomanWithAWo

Actually *@ThatsShitTryHarder* I’m working on trying to open up people’s minds. Maybe free them from discriminatory views

What definition of 'gender' are you using though? How can we work out what you are talking about?

[SmokedDuck]

I don't tend to use the term, because I don't really like the way it defines gender, as many above have said, as a stereotype.

I tend to think of gender as cultural practices or ways of thinking or social structures that are not themselves directly biological but which are attached in some way to sex. I think that's in line with the anthropological or sociological use.

Some of those ideas and beliefs might be negative, some are neutral, and some are positive, but I think it's inevitable that there will be ideas like this attached to sex. The goal is to be conscious about them and looking at how they hinder or help and being cognisant of separating individuals from the group patterns we might try to hand on them.

I also think that there is identity around sex just as there is identity around many other things, like nationality or race or whatever - these come out of the same kinds of psychological capacities.

I don't however for a moment believe that there is a fixed thing in our brain called a gender identity that is separate from culture or biological sex, or that having personal preferences or tastes, or an alienation from our sexed bodies, makes someone the "other sex" or even the other gender. There's no scientific basis for that and it's also a misunderstanding of how identity works.

[Hibari]

@Skyliner001

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

Yo.

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.