Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

[Skyliner001]

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

Sex is material reality, and FGM is performed on the basis of sex, not identity. Women stating facts are not sneering.

@nellwilsonsWhiteHair - I identify with everything you've said very strongly which is why I mostly just don't really engage with most feminism at all. I read here, but never really post as I find the focus on and hostility to trans people to be really unpleasant, but can't really talk to a lot of my very Lib Fem friends as I do see differences between trans and natal women in some situations and think there's a lot of complexity that isn't addressed by TWAW. It's hard.

@Thelnebriati

Sex is material reality, and FGM is performed on the basis of sex, not identity. Women stating facts are not sneering.

I think that depends entirely on the facts in question and the moment when someone chooses to state them TBH.

I think some of the posts here are slightly disingenuous that being "gender critical" has always been a thing. The concept might be but the phrase itself is new and almost always used only on trans related threads.

That's because it's actually 'stereotype critical'. The reason gender has replaced the word stereotype, is because of the way the trans ideology describes gender. Although you will rarely get a trans activist saying it out loud, all the narrative is about clothing, toys, baby grows and barrettes.

Interestingly, established transgender organisations do not. They will readily say it's culturally defined roles.

People who’ve undergone male puberty playing rugby against natal women? Dangerous. Rapists accessing women’s prisons because authorities are too frightened of being deemed transphobic to keep women safe? Despicable. Sneering that someone who has lived and passed as a woman for many many years, maybe post-op, shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s changing room? Also pretty nasty.

So how do we agree on a list of people to exclude from female single sex spaces and sports in a way that doesn’t exclude women who can’t share (for religious or personal reasons)?

With a policy of self id how do we trust that everyone who says they identify as a woman isn’t just pretending to in order to access women at a vulnerable time ie when undressed or sleeping?

Sneering that someone who has lived and passed as a woman for many many years, maybe post-op, shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s changing room? Also pretty nasty.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. However:

It wasn't GC women who insisted that a male bodied person who is feeling feminine that day is absolutely no different to a 'post op transwoman'.

These 'post op transwomen' could have spoken out about this situation but very few did. Its not the fault of GC women that they did not assert themselves and tell these new type of trans to fuck off nd stop appropriating their mental distress in order to indulge their misogynistic behaviours.

I literally Have absolutely no idea what this means. I’m so fed up. I despair of our future generations.

What is gender? Until that is explained I cannot possibly have any view. If it means women must wear dresses and be content to earn less than men etc then gender can eff right off. If it means something else entirely then please do elucidate OP.

All feminism is gender critical. That's what feminism does, and has done, since time immemorial.

If anyone ever comes up with a definition of gender that proves that it isn't based on stereotypes, I might consider being less critical of it. But nobody has yet.

[quote NellWilsonsWhiteHair]@CuriousaboutSamphire how do you navigate that, then? I agree woman has to have meaning. But I also think it’s gratuitously mean to insist that a trans woman is Not A Woman and therefore (for example) shouldn’t use the female toilets. Obviously when this was a tiny and largely passing population, it wasn’t really an issue. (True also for the meaningful-ness of the word ‘woman’ more generally.)

I think it’s risible that anyone says ‘oh you can’t discuss FGM because it excludes trans women’ or thinks that’s a good moment to shout ‘not all women have vaginas’ or whatever. Fucking outrageous. But I can’t conclude from that that trans people should never be included as the group they identify as and must always and everywhere be categorised as the sex they were born. I don’t want to be forced into that position by TRAs or by feminists.

People who’ve undergone male puberty playing rugby against natal women? Dangerous. Rapists accessing women’s prisons because authorities are too frightened of being deemed transphobic to keep women safe? Despicable. Sneering that someone who has lived and passed as a woman for many many years, maybe post-op, shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s changing room? Also pretty nasty.

I have been having this debate for 15 years and I still can’t reconcile myself entirely to either ‘side’.[/quote]
I don't square it. I wasn't the one who destroyed that silent agreement. And 'gratuitously mean' pales into insignificance when you first hear of the consequences of being nice or ruling that TWAW in all situations. As evidenced by recent, UK based examples, not hypotheticals or elsewhere.

As for acceptance at any point well I do that on a case by case, no, on an individual basis. And I do that whilst still knowing that humans can't change sex; that men, as a class, pose the biggest threat of violence to women (and other men); that single sex provision is legal and necessary in many areas and that the actions of a loud and angry cohort of activists have done much damage to the lives of trans people and women and girls alike.

Like you, and many others here, I was not willing to be unpleasant, to make the trans people I know or met feel uncomfortable by acknowledging their trans status. I would accept without question. But that changed about 3 or 4 years ago (at most). I now cannot see passed the lie, human beings cannot change sex, the vast majority of transwomen do not have surgery on their genitals and, as a class, retain the male pattern of offending.

Put simply my refusal to 'be nice' to the detriment of women's rights came after many years of quiet acceptance, even when that caused me a moment or two of fear. The loud and aggressive actions of TRAs scared me into a realisation: I am not debating trans rights, I am defending the rights and dignity of women and girls.

That's it!

@Bordois

Sneering that someone who has lived and passed as a woman for many many years, maybe post-op, shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s changing room? Also pretty nasty.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. However:

It wasn't GC women who insisted that a male bodied person who is feeling feminine that day is absolutely no different to a 'post op transwoman'.

These 'post op transwomen' could have spoken out about this situation but very few did. Its not the fault of GC women that they did not assert themselves and tell these new type of trans to fuck off nd stop appropriating their mental distress in order to indulge their misogynistic behaviours.

I agree (although I think some did), but I'm not prepared to be part of chucking them under the bus just because they didn't put their head above the parapet (god knows we've all been guilty of that at times, especially when vulnerable - and I think long term trans people are very vulnerable in all this), or because TRAs did it first.

It's such a mess. Much of it created by good intentions.

@gardenbird48 I don't know. I know the neat answer would be that you assign access based on genitals and birth certificate (although both of these seem problematic to police on a daily basis?) since at least it's feasible and the categories are clear, but I think that would involve a lot of avoidable hurt too which I would seek to avoid if possible...

@Bordois

Sneering that someone who has lived and passed as a woman for many many years, maybe post-op, shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s changing room? Also pretty nasty.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. However:

It wasn't GC women who insisted that a male bodied person who is feeling feminine that day is absolutely no different to a 'post op transwoman'.

These 'post op transwomen' could have spoken out about this situation but very few did. Its not the fault of GC women that they did not assert themselves and tell these new type of trans to fuck off nd stop appropriating their mental distress in order to indulge their misogynistic behaviours.

Theryn Meyer and Blaire White did that in the case of Daniel(le) Muscato and I seem to recall got very short shrift from Magdalen Berns.

I don't think It wasn't GC women who insisted that a male bodied person who is feeling feminine that day is absolutely no different to a 'post op transwoman' is quite true. I've seen posts on here that do insist that even a passing, post op trans woman should not use female toilets.

But I also think it’s gratuitously mean to insist that a trans woman is Not A Woman

Mean? It's biological fact, not meanness.

My GCness stops at GRA certificated people.

The problem came when it shifted from TWATW to TWAW and we were told to accept that meant they were literally women the same as someone born female. Then to compound it we were told that being a trans woman was an innate ‘feeling’ that required no outward change of appearance at all and we had no right to ask questions #nodebate #acceptancewithoutexception
And funnily enough many women having spent a lifetime on the wrong time of sex based impression were not impressed with that line of reasoning

Once women is redefined to include those born men there is ‘no women only’ anything

I don't think It wasn't GC women who insisted that a male bodied person who is feeling feminine that day is absolutely no different to a 'post op transwoman' is quite true. I've seen posts on here that do insist that even a passing, post op trans woman should not use female toilets.

Saying that 'even a passing, post op trans woman should not use female toilets' doesn't necessarily imply that there is no difference between such a person and a Pips Bunce. It just says that they are all male and have no right to access female only spaces.

The people who said a woman is 'anyone who says they are' or 'anyone who identifies as a woman' are not feminists.

Sex based oppression!

These days, knowing a couple, mine merely hesitates. The attitude remains, you cannot excise decades of male socialisation with a surgeon's blade.

Don't get me wrong, I call my transwomen friend the name she uses daily and call her her. I know how much surgery she has had, I supported her through most of it. But she is still biologically male and has some of the most stereotypical male attitudes - which always come as a surprise, even now, after 30+ years of friendship.

But events over the last few years have meant some quite in uncomfortable discussions. Thankfully we agree on most things, including that even with a GRC she isn't female, has just been given a hall pass!

Like you, and many others here, I was not willing to be unpleasant, to make the trans people I know or met feel uncomfortable by acknowledging their trans status. I would accept without question. But that changed about 3 or 4 years ago (at most). I now cannot see passed the lie, human beings cannot change sex, the vast majority of transwomen do not have surgery on their genitals and, as a class, retain the male pattern of offending.

@CuriousaboutSamphire what does this look for you in practice (if you don't mind sharing)? I'm thinking in particular about the trans people in your life, and how you interact with them now you've reached this position. Does it mean that you use their preferred pronouns out of politeness, and just avoid all discussion of trans in their presence? Does it factor in your decisions about what to post or like on social media, for example?

Its not the main point I know, but for me the desire to not hurt my trans friends (people who were trans long before it was fashionable or indeed acceptable, and also all trans men which I mention because I think the volume and the problems we're currently grappling with is overwhelmingly about trans women and, differently, NB people) weighs heavily on all this. I agree it wasn't feminists who lit this fuse and let ordinary trans people become the collateral damage, but I still want to do right by them now, whatever that looks like post silent agreement.

What does the desired end goal look like for you? I think I appreciate and am sympathetic to the reactive position against a TRA movement which is (i think mostly unconsciously) systematically destroying women's rights and safety, but I really want there to be a time when we have successfully safeguarded against that without creating a world where people can't also occupy trans identities, whether in a serious way for life or temporarily, in play (like what we'd think of as transsexualism, for example, which I don't think should ever mean Eddie Izzard in the female toilets and which I know has often - although not IMO inevitably - involved propping up dodgy gender stereotypes).

I think I answered most of that as you were typing 😊

And we don't discuss s/he who cannot be named here! We loved the action transvestite wearing his own dresses. Now? No conversation to be had!

NellWilsonsWhiteHair

I agree with everything you have said.

I think the posters who are saying " gender critical" has always been a cornerstone of feminism are being disingenuous. The phrase appeared out of the blue on here very recently and is used in relation to trans issues.

At the risk of rewriting the OP's question I think it was perhaps intended to draw out posters with your views, which I share.

I've seen posts on here that do insist that even a passing, post op trans woman should not use female toilets

Thats pretty much the point I was making. If a post op transwoman is exactly the same as the male who feels a bit feminine today as we are repeatedly being told by MTRAs then either both or neither should be using female facilities by their own logic.

If you agree the feminine male should be excluded then the actual post op transwoman should also be excluded as there is no difference between them.

We are just applyingMTRA's own logic to the situation. They can't have it both ways

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I think I answered most of that as you were typing 😊

And we don't discuss s/he who cannot be named here! We loved the action transvestite wearing his own dresses. Now? No conversation to be had!

Oh crap - am I about to have my earnest post vanish entirely in a puff of smoke for that careless reference? 😬

You did, thank you. I'm still interested in the point about what the world ideally looks like for trans people after we have (hopefully) seen off the current level of capture and silencing? I think people like your friend will continue to exist always, as part of the normal variation in human life, and I'd rather not contribute to that existence worsening in quality if we can avoid it. But maybe the very fact you can have such a conversation illustrates that the tension of women's rights vs trans rights isn't as zero sum as we sometimes fear.

The only thing I'm critical of is other people telling me what to think.