Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

[Skyliner001]

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

Yo.

What are the gender rules? I’d like to know so I too can break them. ☺️

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.

So were the suffragettes enbies, for breaking gender norms and demanding the vote?

Was Elizabeth I a transman or an enby for saying she had the body of a weak and feeble woman but the heart of a king?

Were the original Girl Guides who demanded that Baden Powell create an adventure organisation for girls really enbies because they were breaking gender norms (they just weren't allowed to join the Scouts because of their, er, biological sex)?

Were their little sisters also enbies? Those girls were originally part of an organisation called the Rosebuds, but they didn't like their flowery, girly name and insisted on something better (the Brownies). This was in 1914.

Since when did breaking gender rules ever involve denying biological sex?

I fail to see how 'non-binary' is anything but rooted in sexist stereotypes: 'Women are like this; men are like this; I am not like either of those things so therefore I am non-binary'.

Breaking gender rules indeed! Enbyism perpetuates gender norms and reinforces stereotypes more than anything else I can think of. It actually makes me very angry.

Oh EdgeOfACoin stereotypes makes much more sense I thought there were actual “rules” cos Hibari said “... breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways” and I wanted to join in. Stereotypes just suck!

@ItsLateHumpty

Oh EdgeOfACoin stereotypes makes much more sense I thought there were actual “rules” cos Hibari said “... breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways” and I wanted to join in. Stereotypes just suck!

Well, Humpty, if someone can explain the difference between a 'gender norm' and a 'sexist stereotype' perhaps I will feel less angry.

Hibari can you explain what you mean? Do you think that a 'cis' woman with a female gender identity has to follow female gender stereotypes? If not, what's the difference between her and a non binary person?

I did Google ‘gender rules’ because I know how Hibari likes to tell us to educate ourselves but under “gender rules” all I got was the attached so I hope Hibari can explain the “rules” to us and that they aren’t just stereotypes. That would be so disappointing.

@WomanWithAWo

Actually *@ThatsShitTryHarder* I’m working on trying to open up people’s minds. Maybe free them from discriminatory views

Far out man

This board has generally been gender critical since way before the issues around self ID meant we started discussing women's rights in relation to trans issues.

Being gender critical means campaigns like 'let toys be toys'. Being gender critical means being appalled when are small children were told 'girls can't' or 'boys should' etc. Gender critical means not accepting artificial rules imposed on women and men because of our sex, while understanding the genuine differences between the sexes.

Feminism can't be uncritical of gender.

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair

Yes, you've articulated pretty much what I feel, but said it better.

@JaneJeffer

Well I don't really think none binary is a thing to get fussed about - As long as the people expressing it realise that a huge percentage of the people they think or as women are in fact (in the current jargon ) none binary

It was kind of the whole point of feminism from the year dot, women don't want any rules imposed on them because of their sex , we would like to be ourselves anywhere on the masculine feminine spectrum

So in a way describing yourself as feminist and others as non feminist is no different to you being an nbie and others as having / accepting gender .. challenging the rules or accepting them

I guess as a feminist you assume that others are until proven otherwise whereas to be an nbie you have to make the right statements and gestures ?

Also I interpreted feminism as open to all irrespective of race, age , looks , disability , sex ( that last is controversial I know ) . I am pretty sure age excludes you from nbie status given the comments I have seen ?

Funny isn't it? I posted, entirely in good faith, explaining why I am GC but still maintain firm friendships with a couple of trans individuals and what happens? Fuck all!

Nobody demanding women here 'be nice' has the common decency to even acknowledge what I posted. WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF?

That even the most GC feminist can have trans friends? Why does that bother you?

Which gender rules does Hibari think are being broken by non-binary people? That implies they believe there are specific ways to behave and conform to be female or male. Which country/area are those stereotypes to be based on? What about the rest of the world with different ideas of gender roles? How do the billions of people who speak languages with no gendered pronouns fit into this? Imo Hibari shows it's a fashion specific to and designed to reinforce white, Western colonial privilege.

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.

How are they breaking gender rules? Saying 'a male who looks, behaves and feels a certain way is actually a woman' is just reinforcing stereotypes about what being a woman is, stereotypes about how women appear, behave and feel.

And as PP said 'non-binary' is the worst for reiforces stereotypes. It is saying 'I don't fit the stereotypes of man or woman, therefore I am literally neither man nor woman, and this needs to be recognised in law'. Its saying that those stereotypes are so strong and so important that they are what actually make you a man or a woman?

It would be great if a 'non-GC person' could explain how non-GC beliefs fit with feminism, without resorting to slogans.

@NotTerfNorCis

It would be great if a 'non-GC person' could explain how non-GC beliefs fit with feminism, without resorting to slogans.

That would indeed be interesting.

Oh FFS!

When will posters realize that most of us would qualify as ‘enby’? It gets wielded here often but the reality is, by current definitions most of us, including me, would be included.

Yo

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.

And giving a different opinion:

Transwomen are male
Transmen are female
Enbies (non binary people) are still either male or female regardless of gender identity

I really don't understand why people who wish to break away from restrictive stereotypes based on their sex can't just do that without trying to trash the societal norms that segregate male and female sexed people in certain situations.

@EdgeOfACoin

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.

So were the suffragettes enbies, for breaking gender norms and demanding the vote?

Was Elizabeth I a transman or an enby for saying she had the body of a weak and feeble woman but the heart of a king?

Were the original Girl Guides who demanded that Baden Powell create an adventure organisation for girls really enbies because they were breaking gender norms (they just weren't allowed to join the Scouts because of their, er, biological sex)?

Were their little sisters also enbies? Those girls were originally part of an organisation called the Rosebuds, but they didn't like their flowery, girly name and insisted on something better (the Brownies). This was in 1914.

Since when did breaking gender rules ever involve denying biological sex?

I fail to see how 'non-binary' is anything but rooted in sexist stereotypes: 'Women are like this; men are like this; I am not like either of those things so therefore I am non-binary'.

Breaking gender rules indeed! Enbyism perpetuates gender norms and reinforces stereotypes more than anything else I can think of. It actually makes me very angry.

Excellent points. Wonder if you'll get a response to them. I'd be keen to know the non-GC argument against this

@adviceseekingnamechanger You are probably quite right! I hope that us having this exchange shines more light on that!

Being gender critical means campaigns like 'let toys be toys'. Being gender critical means being appalled when are small children were told 'girls can't' or 'boys should' etc. Gender critical means not accepting artificial rules imposed on women and men because of our sex, while understanding the genuine differences between the sexes.
I agree with you on this. I'd thought stereotypes were problematic years before encountering the phrase 'gender critical feminism'.

A boy isn't less of a boy for liking pink and playing with dolls. A girl isn't less of a girl for rolling in mud and enjoying science. It does girls and boys the world of good to break free of these limiting ideas of what a girl/boy 'should' be like.

I will read the whole post BUT I am an feminist and gender critical in the sense I don’t agree with gender stereotypes however I am not trans critical. These two concepts are mutually exclusive in my opinion.

Trans women are women, trans men are men. Enbies (non binary people) are breaking the gender "rules" in all the best ways, and I really don't understand the fear of and resistance to any of this.

I find the TRA empathy deficits rather telling.

I think this above is an example of being unable to empathise with anyone who cares about the truth. So they've projected "fear" onto their empathy gap.

You mostly see this in their abject failure to empathise with anyone who cares about women, but I take that for granted by now, so their other empathy deficits interest me more.