Are there any none-gender critical people on this board?

[Skyliner001]

Inspired by the appearance of a couple of none GC people in other threads I wondered how many are out there on this board?

😊

[NellWilsonsWhiteHair]

@Bordois

I've seen posts on here that do insist that even a passing, post op trans woman should not use female toilets

Thats pretty much the point I was making. If a post op transwoman is exactly the same as the male who feels a bit feminine today as we are repeatedly being told by MTRAs then either both or neither should be using female facilities by their own logic.

If you agree the feminine male should be excluded then the actual post op transwoman should also be excluded as there is no difference between them.

We are just applyingMTRA's own logic to the situation. They can't have it both ways

Yes, but is it in fact the position you hold? It makes sense as a frustrated snap back to TRAs pushing too far, but where I agree with your logic, I'd refute the suggestion that people who have lived consistently as the opposite sex for many many years are the same as those who are "in girl mode today" and say no, bullshit, we need a way to discern between. Maybe that's GRC, maybe it's a revised GRC, maybe it's something different - I think that's a detail worth working out, rather than throwing hands up in exasperation and going "fine, have it your way..."

[gardenbird48]

I know the neat answer would be that you assign access based on genitals and birth certificate (although both of these seem problematic to police on a daily basis?) since at least it's feasible and the categories are clear, but I think that would involve a lot of avoidable hurt too which I would seek to avoid if possible...

Thank you for your response to that NellWilsons.

Who are you thinking of when you mention ‘avoidable hurt’? Should we consider women’s needs when thinking about avoidable hurt as well?

We have firm evidence of wholly avoidable rapes and sexual assaults that have happened to women when male people are enabled to access private spaces. How do we balance women’s safety with freedom of choice of male people of which facilities to use?

Why is there a rejection of third spaces by the activists? It would help keep women safe - is that not a strong enough argument?

What do we do about the women who can’t share facilities with a male person?

One question that I’ve asked quite a few times now is what evidence is there that a transwoman is in any greater danger using the men’s facilities than any other vulnerable male group? There are a number of very feminine presenting transwomen who happily use the men’s - why are they different?

[Cokie3]

OP, perhaps you can explain why you and those like you never answer any questions asked of you and run away instead of answering anything? Such as, why you think stereotyping people based on gender is a 'good' thing? And why you call us 'trans-bashing', when I've yet to see anyone bash any trans people?

[Okbussitout]

I wouldn't describe myself as gender critical. But apparently that makes me not a feminist so I guess I'll go then!

[YukoandHiro]

Thank god @NellWilsonsWhiteHair - you've managed to articulate exactly how I feel/where I stand

[Bordois]

I'd refute the suggestion that people who have lived consistently as the opposite sex for many many years are the same as those who are "in girl mode today" and say no, bullshit, we need a way to discern between.

Then that's for them to sort out. If the "trutrans" are that bothered by being lumped in with "girlmode trans" then they can speak up.

We're staying in our lane, as we are also constantly told to do. Women have enough of their own issues to sort without adding to them.

[OldCrone]

I think the posters who are saying " gender critical" has always been a cornerstone of feminism are being disingenuous. The phrase appeared out of the blue on here very recently and is used in relation to trans issues.

Do you know who first came up with the term 'gender critical'? I first saw it here a few years ago, but I took it to mean simply 'critical of gender stereotyping'. Which is something that I thought all feminists would be. Does it have a different meaning?

[MissBarbary]

I've been posting here 5/6 years. It wasn't a phrase in use when I first started. I can't say exactly when it appeared or who used it.

I took it to mean simply 'critical of gender stereotyping'. Which is something that I thought all feminists would be. Does it have a different meaning?

I'm sure that's a plausible definition but I think a narrower interpretation of limiting it to trans issues is possible.

[MissBarbary]

Then that's for them to sort out. If the "trutrans" are that bothered by being lumped in with "girlmode trans" then they can speak up

Some of them did and do - and got very short shrift from the gender critical sector.

It's interesting to me, having been put off the gender critical position on trans issues by Magdalen Berns sneering at Blaire White, how often Blaire White is now cited on here because of her support for child safeguarding, women's sports, free speech, JKR and the like.

[Bordois]

Its almost as if individual people have differing views and opinions on a subject that encompasses many differing things and may change over time depending on the specific thing being spoken about 🤔

[midgeswithnofingernails]

A quick google gives me gender critical feminism ... dated 1996

[MissBarbary]

@YukoandHiro

Thank god *@NellWilsonsWhiteHair* - you've managed to articulate exactly how I feel/where I stand

Same here.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

As I was trying to post before the dog got in the way...

I think Nell we only have those conversations because we are of an age, in our 50s.

When he first accessed help, in his 20s, he had a lot of therapy. No talk of hormones etc back then. He was encouraged to think it all through before acting, to access talking therapy and creative writing sessions to pre imagine his life as a woman.

Then he decided to be 'she' and came out at home, then socially, which back then was in the pub. Later she had her first surgery, breast augmentation and jaw slimming. Then she came out at work. More surgery followed, she stopped short of genital surgery and now takes hormones. She first applied for a GRC in the first year it was available.

So she lives as she but lives in a male body, knows he is male. A dichotomy that still requires therapy.

I am not sure the activists demanding change, to be women in all ways, would accept that and would probably be quite hostile if she spoke out.

[MissBarbary]

@midgeswithnofingernails

A quick google gives me gender critical feminism ... dated 1996

When did the phrase gain traction on here?

I don't recall seeing it until relatively recently.

[Merename]

@MissBarbary

Then that's for them to sort out. If the "trutrans" are that bothered by being lumped in with "girlmode trans" then they can speak up

Some of them did and do - and got very short shrift from the gender critical sector.

It's interesting to me, having been put off the gender critical position on trans issues by Magdalen Berns sneering at Blaire White, how often Blaire White is now cited on here because of her support for child safeguarding, women's sports, free speech, JKR and the like.

I feel the same about what I’ve watched from Magdalen Berns, the sneery tone is not ok for me, although id agree with many of her points.

[Juliesipadwillcallyouback]

Yes, but is it in fact the position you hold? It makes sense as a frustrated snap back to TRAs pushing too far, but where I agree with your logic, I'd refute the suggestion that people who have lived consistently as the opposite sex for many many years are the same as those who are "in girl mode today" and say no, bullshit, we need a way to discern between. Maybe that's GRC, maybe it's a revised GRC, maybe it's something different - I think that's a detail worth working out, rather than throwing hands up in exasperation and going "fine, have it your way..."

But the self id brigade would never go for that. Trans people can already obtain a GRC, they can legally falsify their birth certificate, if they go through due process, but only about 5000 people have one. And there are single sex exemptions in the EA which give guarantee single sex provision in certain situations. What is wrong with the status quo? It's Stonewall/TRAs who are trying to dismantle this.

[Juliesipadwillcallyouback]

It's funny how a woman who doesn't take bullshit, calls out sexism and misogyny when she sees it, and from what I saw doesn't give a fuck about what people think of her, is described as being 'sneery'.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

Utterly pointless conversation.

No, women who care about other women's needs and rights and don't agree that some women must be distressed and excluded in order for TW to able to have the full freedom of choice they would like, are not evil.

If there were no attacks on female rights, language, spaces and sex based needs there would be no need for conflict.

But the fact is we have two totally irreconcilable view points and preferences.

However we all believe in respect, tolerance, kindness, inclusiveness, diversity, lived experience and choice of language/identity, or we wouldn't care in the first place.

The GC view is that these values should apply to everyone, without exception, equally and reciprocally, and this means that additional spaces need to be created to allow those female people who need them to have sex based rights and sex based provisions alongside the mixed sex and additional provisions, terminology and policy that TW would like. Everyone's needs successfully met.

That's not exactly an evil point of view.

On the other hand, that some female people should lose all access to public spaces in order that some people born male may have their preferred choice from all the public spaces? That's horrifically sexist any way you slice it.

Fgs can we move now to the solutions of mutual tolerance and acceptance that we may never agree but we can live peacefully side by side with the right range of provisions that meet all needs? Tolerance on both sides that others hold different beliefs without requiring them to convert?

[MonkeyNotOrgangrinder]

TRAs are really still rattled by Magdalen Burns, eh? Her amazing talent for communicating ideas and cutting through bullshit lives on. I'm sure she'd be pissing herself laughing at being described as "sneery"
Men don't like being told no do they...

[1000umbrellas]

This thread has been derailed as expected, so I'll head to other feminist boards 😊

You asked if there are non-gc people on this board and people are literally answering your question.

[SmellsLikeTeenBedroom]

@MissBarbary

NellWilsonsWhiteHair

I agree with everything you have said.

I think the posters who are saying " gender critical" has always been a cornerstone of feminism are being disingenuous. The phrase appeared out of the blue on here very recently and is used in relation to trans issues.

At the risk of rewriting the OP's question I think it was perhaps intended to draw out posters with your views, which I share.

The reason whybthe phrase GC has only recently emerged is because, as previous posters have said, it used to go without saying and be synonymous with feminism. But now that the meaning of feminism is being understood differently by some people, the term GC has arisen to refer to "feminism as it always used to be". Similarly, the term "woman" used to be universally understood to mean "adult human female" but now some people are reinterpreting the word woman to mean something different. That's why its not great to change the meaning of words

[MissBarbary]

@MonkeyNotOrgangrinder

TRAs are really still rattled by Magdalen Burns, eh? Her amazing talent for communicating ideas and cutting through bullshit lives on. I'm sure she'd be pissing herself laughing at being described as "sneery"
Men don't like being told no do they...

i didn't find Berns had "an amazing talent for communicating ideas"

I'm neither a TRA nor a man. Strange that you are so rattled about a different view point.

[Feelinghothothottoday]

So based on some of the posts here we should

Not let trans women play women’s sport because of the obvious physical differences;

We should not let transgender women in to female prisons.

But it’s not nice to ban transgender women from female toilets or changing rooms.

Ok so would you be happy if Eddie I started getting undressed in your daughter’s changing room.

It all comes down to sex and not gender.

[MiaChia]

@1000umbrellas
"This thread has been derailed as expected, so I'll head to other feminist boards 😊

You asked if there are non-gc people on this board and people are literally answering your question."

Some posters are desperately hard of understanding 🤪Not to mention devoid of self-awareness. Can we break down the answer to the question for them into words of, I don't know, less than one syllable? 🤣