Suicide rate of those who have undergone reassignment

[Wandawomble]

Noticed a comment on the Times article recently posted - “The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.”

Can we find more information about this?

I'm really genuinely sorry if that's something you don't like or agree with but, that's how I feel

You don't have to apologise for mere disagreement.

I get it that you have your own perspective based on your own experience, and on your own feelings.

But feelings are not always the best long term guide to action. Certainly not in the case of children.

@Justhadathought

I'm really genuinely sorry if that's something you don't like or agree with but, that's how I feel

You don't have to apologise for mere disagreement.

I get it that you have your own perspective based on your own experience, and on your own feelings.

But feelings are not always the best long term guide to action. Certainly not in the case of children.

I'm mindful to agree to a point. That is why I think the decisions around the treatment of trans children (adolescents in reality) is best left to those children, their parents/guardians and the clinicians involved in their care. Outside interference, particularly of a non medical kind in that particular process, be it supportive or not is likely to be of little benefit to the children involved. Of course parents and children may welcome external support away from the medical setting which I see is provided by groups and charities as is common with many conditions.

@Justhadathought

The judges in the Bell case obviously disagreed with me but, I'd take a lot of convincing that they had the best interests of those children at heart too

How you determine 'long term best interest' will obviously depend on factors such as one's ideological standpoint; as well as on how closely one adheres to or rejects safeguarding practices.

If you unquestionably accept that there is a such a thing as a 'trans child' ( meaning a child who has somehow been born in the 'wrong body'), as opposed to a child who is struggling or in distress, then your thoughts and actions will naturally lead on from there.

I do unquestionably accept that there is such a thing as a trans child. I have no other choice other than to form that opinion because I was one. No amount of taking me to the priest, the GP, various people involved in childhood mental health and hoping that it was a phase was ever going to change that. Sadly, I had to leave home and make my way as a young adult as I didn't feel safe or supported.

However, that is a long way from saying that all children who suffer distress at the disconnect they feel between their biological sex and how they see themselves are trans. That seems to be bourne out in the number of referrals that actually result in treatment and the fact that even the number of referrals, despite recent increases are still a tiny proportion of the UK adolescent population. Something like 99.92% of UK children aren't ever referred to a gender clinic meaning that the distress is still very rare and a diagnosis proportionally almost non existent. With a conservatively estimated prevalence of 0.3% of people being trans, I would have thought each 700,000 or so live births every year would result in about 2330 being diagnosed as trans. As far as I am aware, actual diagnoses are much lower than that. I think the Daily Hate did an expose in the last couple of years to say the number of children referred for blockers since 2011 was around 800. A very alarmist report but proportionally a tiny amount. You'd probably be able to dig it out with a Google search.

I think the 'born in the wrong body' saying is an easier way for a young person to put into words how they feel. It does feel that way at times but I don't actually think it's a literal belief that many hold.

I do unquestionably accept that there is such a thing as a trans child. I have no other choice other than to form that opinion because I was one.

However, that is a long way from saying that all children who suffer distress at the disconnect they feel between their biological sex and how they see themselves are trans.

I think the 'born in the wrong body' saying is an easier way for a young person to put into words how they feel. It does feel that way at times but I don't actually think it's a literal belief that many hold.

You've said a lot here about what a trans child isn't, but it tells us nothing about what distinguishes a 'trans child' from a child who is suffering distress about their sex for some other reason.

What is a trans child? The diagnostic criteria are mainly about stereotypes, so this doesn't tell us anything about how anyone could diagnose transness in a child.

What is it about this group of children which makes them need to be made into medical patients for life requiring multiple surgical procedures and lifelong treatment with opposite sex hormones? What are the distinguishing features of these children which makes them 'trans'?

So... If being trans isn't a mental health issue that causes considerable distress, why should children be given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones that cause infertility and cancer, to stop them committing suicide in droves?

Is it a mental health and physical health issue or not?

@OldCrone

I do unquestionably accept that there is such a thing as a trans child. I have no other choice other than to form that opinion because I was one.

However, that is a long way from saying that all children who suffer distress at the disconnect they feel between their biological sex and how they see themselves are trans.

I think the 'born in the wrong body' saying is an easier way for a young person to put into words how they feel. It does feel that way at times but I don't actually think it's a literal belief that many hold.

You've said a lot here about what a trans child isn't, but it tells us nothing about what distinguishes a 'trans child' from a child who is suffering distress about their sex for some other reason.

What is a trans child? The diagnostic criteria are mainly about stereotypes, so this doesn't tell us anything about how anyone could diagnose transness in a child.

What is it about this group of children which makes them need to be made into medical patients for life requiring multiple surgical procedures and lifelong treatment with opposite sex hormones? What are the distinguishing features of these children which makes them 'trans'?

I'm not personally involved in diagnosing trans children but I've experienced how it feels and for me it's more about the level of persistence, insistence and a consistent belief for some that we are or have a very strong desire to be the opposite sex to which we were born. It's important to say that despite the way I felt I am very aware of my biological sex, in fact it was that knowledge and conflict with my sense of self that caused the distress I suppose. I might have answered that differently at 13 as The distress was starting to run out of control. The persistence will often be there over a period of years. It's generally coupled with a high level of distress such as acute anxiety and depression as the body develops in a way which caused further distress or in non supportive families when we are encouraged or forced to conform to stereotypical behaviours and presentations often associated with a particular sex. Our well being is observedly improved by affirmative care. I'm not saying there is no misdiagnosis but I can't imagine it would be any easier to force someone to be trans than it is to force a child not be trans.

You are right though that many children are non conforming or suffer distress at bodily changes for other reasons but, that particular persistence and insistence about a trans identity over such a long period of time is not at all common and makes us stand out from those who display limited variant behaviours. The numbers of children accessing trans health care through the Tavistock and UCH compared to the number of referrals that result in no further treatment reflects that this persistence is something unique in a tiny number of people.

Aside from all that, I'm often interested to know why some people believe we can be trans adults but not trans children almost as if they can place an 18 rated certificate on a well documented medical condition?

I can only talk about my experience and what I observe in others but, I'm sure somebody involved in the care of trans children may be open to explaining to you how they come to that differential diagnosis.

You say several times that trans people are rare; how rare? ("that particular persistence and insistence about a trans identity over such a long period of time is not at all common" for instance.)

As many as 2-500,000 in the UK?

The persistence will often be there over a period of years. It's generally coupled with a high level of distress such as acute anxiety and depression as the body develops in a way which caused further distress or in non supportive families when we are encouraged or forced to conform to stereotypical behaviours and presentations often associated with a particular sex

Isn't this the crux of the issue, though: being, or feeling forced to conform to stereotypical behaviours and presentations?

That would indeed constitute a non supportive environment for any child, and particularly for a sensitive child; and furthermore the parental compulsions need not even be aggressively overt, bu simply implicitly expected.

However, it would not necessarily be a non -supportive environment where the parent/s simply question the trans 'narrative'.Lots of parents here, for example, have expressed, and spoken of, their openness and encouragement towards non -conforming gendered expressions in their children.

What makes my trans child feel suicidal is not the gender dysphoria but the hideous transphobic attitudes outwardly expressed by so many people now.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

You say several times that trans people are rare; how rare? ("that particular persistence and insistence about a trans identity over such a long period of time is not at all common" for instance.)

As many as 2-500,000 in the UK?

I said trans people are rare in the context of talking about diagnosed children. But, seeing as you mention it, estimates are often quoted as saying we number anything from 0.3% to 1% of the population so yes, I'd say we are pretty rare on the whole. That sort of makes sense with my daily experience of hardly ever seeing another trans person as I go about my daily business. I'd say that is a reasonably common experience not just in the UK but worldwide. On the other hand people who aren't trans are swarming all over the place.

Aside from all that, I'm often interested to know why some people believe we can be trans adults but not trans children almost as if they can place an 18 rated certificate on a well documented medical condition

I think many of us question the trans narrative/explanation full stop. Whether that be in adults, or in childrenThat is not to say that we don't understand or have sympathy/compassion for those who feel and struggle in this way.

But the concern is paramount when it comes to children, because influences and narratives in childhood tend to shape the life thereafter; and because nobody wants to see a child with a healthy body have to be subject to medical or surgical treatments that could damage that body going forward. Or for a child to have to be subject to a life in which there is such obvious dissonance; both personally and socially.

What makes my trans child feel suicidal is not the gender dysphoria but the hideous transphobic attitudes outwardly expressed by so many people now

i suspect that what you refer to as transphobia is simply the natural and inevitable recognition of sex - which underlies all presentations and feelings about the self. You cannot blame people for being cognisant of something so elemental.

@Fraida

What makes my trans child feel suicidal is not the gender dysphoria but the hideous transphobic attitudes outwardly expressed by so many people now.

You're right, being trans itself is not a cause for feeling suicidal. Lack of support and the societal intolerance can be overwhelming. I'm rooting for you both. Any minority moving from a position of being begrudgingly tolerated to openly accepted will see concerted push back and open intolerance. I know it doesn't seem like it at the moment but things are going to much better for this next generation. Take care and keep safe. 🍀

Aside from all that, I'm often interested to know why some people believe we can be trans adults but not trans children almost as if they can place an 18 rated certificate on a well documented medical condition?

Doesn't being trans require an adult understanding about sex and sexuality? For children the idea of being the opposite sex seems to be all about stereotypes. What else could it be about? If it's about hatred of their body then there is a lot that needs to be looked at about why they hate their body.

Any minority moving from a position of being begrudgingly tolerated to openly accepted will see concerted push back and open intolerance. I know it doesn't seem like it at the moment but things are going to much better for this next generation. Take care and keep safe 🍀

The issue for most people here is not in not allowing people to be themselves and express how they want; but of the forceful incursion into women's spaces, services, sports and so on; and in the demand that people deny what they instinctively perceive - which is the reality of sex.

Also of course, how the 'agenda' has shifted towards children, and increasingly in recent years towards young gender non-conforming girls and lesbians.

Any identity is necessarily/by definition a social matter. An identity of any kind depends on social relationships/negotiations to have any valid meaning. We exist as social creatures. We can be whoever we imagine ourselves to be in our own private world, however.

It is always contact with the external world and wider reality that is the tricky bit. For all of us.

estimates are often quoted as saying we number anything from 0.3% to 1% of the population

For a population of just under 70 million this is between 200,000 and 700,000.

When the GRA was passed in 2004, the estimated number of transsexuals who would want a GRC was around 5,000 (less than 0.01% of the population). Any idea why this figure has increased by a factor of 100 in less than 20 years?

@OldCrone

Aside from all that, I'm often interested to know why some people believe we can be trans adults but not trans children almost as if they can place an 18 rated certificate on a well documented medical condition?

Doesn't being trans require an adult understanding about sex and sexuality? For children the idea of being the opposite sex seems to be all about stereotypes. What else could it be about? If it's about hatred of their body then there is a lot that needs to be looked at about why they hate their body.

I wouldn't say it needs an adult understanding any more than being gay or knowing you are not trans does. Hopefully the ICD change will start to trickle into society as with any similar change in recent history such as de criminalizing and depathologising gay people or going back a little left handed people. I know it won't be immediate but history suggests it will happen.

@Justhadathought

Any minority moving from a position of being begrudgingly tolerated to openly accepted will see concerted push back and open intolerance. I know it doesn't seem like it at the moment but things are going to much better for this next generation. Take care and keep safe 🍀

The issue for most people here is not in not allowing people to be themselves and express how they want; but of the forceful incursion into women's spaces, services, sports and so on; and in the demand that people deny what they instinctively perceive - which is the reality of sex.

Also of course, how the 'agenda' has shifted towards children, and increasingly in recent years towards young gender non-conforming girls and lesbians.

Trans people have used womens/men's spaces for decades in the vast majority of cases without incident. There's never enough services for anybody full stop. A country obsessed with profit suffers from that as a side effect of It's I individualistic greed. It's possible to resolve the sports issue on an individual basis, we do have the medical and scientific capabilities to test for fairness. Anyhow in 17 years of sports inclusion I've not been able to find a trans woman sing by a medal at a major games of competing in an elete team in an environment such as the WSL.

I don't believe there is trans agenda anymore than there was ever a gay agenda. Just a small minority pushing for long yearned for progress. It's a term that carries with it negative connotations though so I suppose it's a useful bit of language for journalists to use to gee up their readership a little.

@OldCrone

estimates are often quoted as saying we number anything from 0.3% to 1% of the population

For a population of just under 70 million this is between 200,000 and 700,000.

When the GRA was passed in 2004, the estimated number of transsexuals who would want a GRC was around 5,000 (less than 0.01% of the population). Any idea why this figure has increased by a factor of 100 in less than 20 years?

I suspect, based on decades of trans people hiding on the fringes of society they underestimated the prevalence of us in the population. Society became more accepting and the enivitable consequence was less people accepting that they had to suffer in silence. Surely that's a good thing?

I wouldn't say it needs an adult understanding any more than being gay

So a child can know that they are gay or trans before they understand about sex and sexuality?

Society became more accepting

But according to another poster, the distress which trans people experience is because society is not accepting.

@OldCrone

estimates are often quoted as saying we number anything from 0.3% to 1% of the population

For a population of just under 70 million this is between 200,000 and 700,000.

When the GRA was passed in 2004, the estimated number of transsexuals who would want a GRC was around 5,000 (less than 0.01% of the population). Any idea why this figure has increased by a factor of 100 in less than 20 years?

Yup. But how many sex-reassignment surgeries have there been since the GRA was passed? Genuine question, I don't know the answer, but given the difficulty so often outlined about being able to access it, I would suppose it must be fewer than 700,000, or even than 200,000. As many as ten percent of the lower figure? I don't suppose a record is kept (or perhaps has been made available) given the secrecy surrounding so much information on this subject, but it seems to me that applying for a GRC would be one of the first things I would want to do if I had been unhappy about my sex for a long time and were now released from that pressure.

@OldCrone

Society became more accepting

But according to another poster, the distress which trans people experience is because society is not accepting.

I said it became more accepting, it's still pretty poor though. That said, the N I assembley voted unanimously to ban conversion therapy today. It's those little victories that allow us to have tentative hope. Small steps.

No, but they don't need to be an adult to know they are gay, trans or both.