Suicide rate of those who have undergone reassignment

[Wandawomble]

Noticed a comment on the Times article recently posted - “The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.”

Can we find more information about this?

@OldCrone

As far as I am aware, the ICD 11 from 2022 will rely much less on looking at being trans as a mental disorder. That fills me full of hope for future generations. The less stigma around a diagnosis the better. It's not to say those future generations won't feel that same acute psychological distress and require the same surgical interventions but, I'm hopeful as a result that their paths through life will be paved with a widespread acceptance.

If it's not a mental disorder, what sort of condition is it which requires a medical diagnosis?

If it is not a mental disorder, what sort of condition is it if it results in psychological distress and requires surgical intervention to relieve this distress?

There is a difference between a mental condition and a mental disorder and comes under the banner of neurodiversity along with autism spectrum and sexuality. The primary differentiator I guess is that you cannot cure a mental condition unlike a mental disorder or illness, despite what advocates of conversion therapy claim.

@OldCrone

As far as I am aware, the ICD 11 from 2022 will rely much less on looking at being trans as a mental disorder. That fills me full of hope for future generations. The less stigma around a diagnosis the better. It's not to say those future generations won't feel that same acute psychological distress and require the same surgical interventions but, I'm hopeful as a result that their paths through life will be paved with a widespread acceptance.

If it's not a mental disorder, what sort of condition is it which requires a medical diagnosis?

If it is not a mental disorder, what sort of condition is it if it results in psychological distress and requires surgical intervention to relieve this distress?

Personally, I don't know, that's something you would need to ask of those involved in writing the ICD 11. But, I'm sure you'll join me in thinking it's a good thing for trans people to move away from being seen as a mental disorder or disorder of any kind really. It's small steps but, Rome wasn't built in a day. Hopefully the future is bright.

There is a difference between a mental condition and a mental disorder and comes under the banner of neurodiversity along with autism spectrum and sexuality.

Does anyone ever suggest surgical interventions for these conditions? (Apart from in places like Iran where being gay is 'cured' by forcing people to undergo GRS.)

Why is medical treatment required at all for people who are trans? What is it that they are trying to achieve with the medical treatment?

I'm sure you'll join me in thinking it's a good thing for trans people to move away from being seen as a mental disorder or disorder of any kind really.

Are you saying that it's not a medical condition at all, so doesn't need any medical treatment?

@OldCrone

There is a difference between a mental condition and a mental disorder and comes under the banner of neurodiversity along with autism spectrum and sexuality.

Does anyone ever suggest surgical interventions for these conditions? (Apart from in places like Iran where being gay is 'cured' by forcing people to undergo GRS.)

Why is medical treatment required at all for people who are trans? What is it that they are trying to achieve with the medical treatment?

Ah the old Iran trope. Well done. I'm oot.

@OldCrone

I'm sure you'll join me in thinking it's a good thing for trans people to move away from being seen as a mental disorder or disorder of any kind really.

Are you saying that it's not a medical condition at all, so doesn't need any medical treatment?

No, I'm not saying it's not a medical condition at all. I'm just pleased for future generations that it will no longer be seen as a mental disorder for diagnostic purposes. As time goes by the associated stigma of being seen as being a disorder or having a disorder will likely seep out of society which is positive. I don't think it will happen tomorrow but, that time is coming. It will still be classed as a medical condition as it can cause an acute distress and from my own experience and that of others not dissimilar to me, both medical and surgical interventions over time have been seen to benefit those they set out to help.

I'm given to thinking it's a bit of an urban myth really that there is any large scale feeling amongst today's transitioners, either old or young that it's transpbobic

Well that is certainly what whistleblowers and others who have worked in GIDS services ( including the Tavistock) have reported. that positive affirmation is the model pursued, and that any attempt to investigate reasons and causes is very much frowned upon.

"Over the last two years a number of clinicians have resigned from the Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service on grounds of conscience. Five shared their concerns with the Sunday Times. Their testimony suggests that pre-existing mental health problems in young people with gender problems may be overlooked and left untreated. They revealed that GIDS did not sufficiently explore whether children with gender dysphoria might grow up to be gay. Worryingly, a number of children adopted a transgender identity after homophobic bullying"

"The experimental ‘affirmation’ approach advocated by these groups fails to take into account the fluid and changing nature of immature and developing identities, together with the susceptibility of children and young people to suggestion and influence from online sources as well as the peer group and trusted adults in positions of authority. The established global model of care for children with gender dysphoria is a ‘watch and wait’ approach which does not steer a child towards any pre-determined outcome, but recognises developmental change as an intrinsic part of childhood and adolescence" : www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/

I'm just pleased for future generations that it will no longer be seen as a mental disorder for diagnostic purposes. As time goes by the associated stigma of being seen as being a disorder or having a disorder will likely seep out of society which is positive.
Shouldn't the focus be on raising awareness in order to reduce the way mental disorders are seen as a stigma by society rather than just reclassifying a medical condition in order to avoid the stigma?
It also doesn't address the stigma that is still experienced by trans people even after transition.
I'm still not clear what the possibile diagnosis could be if it's not a mental disorder?

I’ve just seen an interview on SW News about the appallingly long wait for surgery at the Exeter GIDS. The young TW interviewed said the suicide rate among Trans people is shockingly high and if the waiting list is as long as it is then more doctors NEED to be found!!

@DisgustedofManchester

What Iran trope? Here's an article from the Economist. I fail to see how this is a 'trope'. This is happening to gay people.

www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery

What Iran trope? Here's an article from the Economist. I fail to see how this is a 'trope'. This is happening to gay people

Yes, a trope is a cliche, an embellishment for the purposes of argument.

@Justhadathought

What Iran trope? Here's an article from the Economist. I fail to see how this is a 'trope'. This is happening to gay people

Yes, a trope is a cliche, an embellishment for the purposes of argument.

Yes, not an inconvenient truth.

@Winederlust

I'm just pleased for future generations that it will no longer be seen as a mental disorder for diagnostic purposes. As time goes by the associated stigma of being seen as being a disorder or having a disorder will likely seep out of society which is positive. Shouldn't the focus be on raising awareness in order to reduce the way mental disorders are seen as a stigma by society rather than just reclassifying a medical condition in order to avoid the stigma? It also doesn't address the stigma that is still experienced by trans people even after transition. I'm still not clear what the possibile diagnosis could be if it's not a mental disorder?

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

You are right, the stigma around mental health has long been a cause for concern and I'd love nothing more than to see the government have a concerted push on reducing that stigma. We have come a long way in recent years but there is still so much to do.

With regards to being trans, the WHO determined that from 2022 when ICD 11 becomes the go to resource for diagnosing trans people, it will no longer be classified as a mental disorder. There is a link to it above, I'm not sure if I've entered it right but you can copy and paste it if not. I think that is a good thing as it could be the first step of a long process to the public in general viewing trans people as just a variation of the human condition. You only have to see how far society has come with other intolerances over the years. Granted, it's never likely to be common but, I'm hopeful for a day when trans people and our medical treatment raise no more issue than the colour of your eyes with regards to stigma.

If you really do think that it should still be classed as a mental disorder for diagnostic purposes though, I'd imagine there is an address somewhere in the ICD 11 where you can send feed back and suggestions to the WHO. Personally, I don't agree but a difference of opinion is healthy.

[quote Justhadathought]I'm given to thinking it's a bit of an urban myth really that there is any large scale feeling amongst today's transitioners, either old or young that it's transpbobic

Well that is certainly what whistleblowers and others who have worked in GIDS services ( including the Tavistock) have reported. that positive affirmation is the model pursued, and that any attempt to investigate reasons and causes is very much frowned upon.

"Over the last two years a number of clinicians have resigned from the Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service on grounds of conscience. Five shared their concerns with the Sunday Times. Their testimony suggests that pre-existing mental health problems in young people with gender problems may be overlooked and left untreated. They revealed that GIDS did not sufficiently explore whether children with gender dysphoria might grow up to be gay. Worryingly, a number of children adopted a transgender identity after homophobic bullying"

"The experimental ‘affirmation’ approach advocated by these groups fails to take into account the fluid and changing nature of immature and developing identities, together with the susceptibility of children and young people to suggestion and influence from online sources as well as the peer group and trusted adults in positions of authority. The established global model of care for children with gender dysphoria is a ‘watch and wait’ approach which does not steer a child towards any pre-determined outcome, but recognises developmental change as an intrinsic part of childhood and adolescence" : www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/[/quote]
I quite like the idea that children and adolescents are listened to and have their distress taken seriously. If I'd had that luxury during my teens and early 20's life may have been a bit less distressing. I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act. My distress was a product of doing nothing.

As for the Tavistock clinic, I've got to be honest, if I had a trans child they wouldn't be going anywhere near the place. I think a culture of empire building there has bred incompetence. I would do my utmost to ensure that they would be going private in a country where trans children aren't used as a political football. But, it's all hypothetical because I don't have a trans child so, I'm happy for their treatment to be a matter for them, their parents/guardians and the clinicians involved in their care. There's some reasonably good blogs around from parents who are supportive of their trans children, I think their support and love for those children is really uplifting.

As for Trangender Trend, I personally find it quite difficult to find assurance that they have the best interests of trans children at heart. That's just my opinion, it's unlikely to change but I'm sure there are others.

I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act.

When you say 'trans child', what do you mean exactly? What makes a child 'trans'?

Some people are suggesting that very young (pre-school) children can be 'trans'. Do you agree with this?

The diagnostic criteria for trans children appear to be mostly based on stereotypes. Do you think it is appropriate to set children on a lifelong medical pathway because they don't conform to stereotypes?

abdominalkey.com/the-dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria-for-gender-dysphoria/

I think perhaps what Transgender Trend has at heart is the interests of children who are not actually trans, but have for whatever reason come to think that all problems they have might be "solved" by determining that they are trans and insisting that only by being treated with puberty blockers and offered gender-altering surgery can they find any relief from being adolescent -- a time at which every single person I knew of either sex was not particularly happy about their pubertal development and their new body.

It's the people for whom treatment as trans is not a panacea who are the focus of TransTrend's attention, I suspect.

@MenopausalCrone

I’ve just seen an interview on SW News about the appallingly long wait for surgery at the Exeter GIDS. The young TW interviewed said the suicide rate among Trans people is shockingly high and if the waiting list is as long as it is then more doctors NEED to be found!!

You can't make clinicians do this.

[quote OldCrone]I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act.

When you say 'trans child', what do you mean exactly? What makes a child 'trans'?

Some people are suggesting that very young (pre-school) children can be 'trans'. Do you agree with this?

The diagnostic criteria for trans children appear to be mostly based on stereotypes. Do you think it is appropriate to set children on a lifelong medical pathway because they don't conform to stereotypes?

abdominalkey.com/the-dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria-for-gender-dysphoria/[/quote]
I suppose when I say trans child, I really mean an adolescent on a trans health care pathway. But, do I think some children will benefit from trans healthcare? As a proportion of about 12.5 million under 18's not many, but yes, I think some will. Do I think pre pubescent children can have an awareness of being trans. From my own experience, yes. Whether they have the language to articulate it or live in a supportive environment that will allow them to flourish is a different matter. My parents used to ask why I couldn't just be gay, we haven't spoken in many years and that situation is not going to change.

However, as far as I am aware the diagnostic criteria requires puberty to have started, I think they refer to it as tanned stage 2 (I could be so g) so it's highly unlikely in the UK at least that a pre pubescent child will be allowed to do anything more than social aspects that make them feel comfortable. If those social changes make them comfortable in their own skin, I look at it as a positive thing. Why force a child to be unhappy, it doesn't make sense?

When you say a life long medical pathway, I'm not quite sure we sing from the same hymn sheet. From personal experience, I wouldn't call a patch change twice a week and a trip to the nurse once a year for bloods, cholesterol and a BP check being on a life long medical pathway. It's probably quite handy as a gauge of my general health so, again that's positive.

For a small minority of children the world over, I do think trans healthcare during adolescence is on balance beneficial. Some quite invasive surgeries during adulthood can be avoided this way.

Does that mean to say that there won't be misdiagnosis and consequent de-transitions? Of course not, but there are misdiagnosis prevalent in many serious health care settings so it's important to ensure the rate is low, lessons are learnt and those affected are adequately supported. I find important to distinguish between desistors and de-transitioners though. Seeing as the numbers referred are in the thousands but the numbers treated in the hundreds I think anyone using desistance prior to diagnosis rates to curtail healthcare is possibly acting in poor faith. I certainly wouldn't advocate for the cessation of a treatment that appears on the whole to be beneficial to most. It seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Of course, it's only my opinion, I'm not involved in healthcare, nor do I personally know any trans children. So, as I've mentioned before, I'm content to leave these things to the child, their parents/guardians and the clinicians involved in their care. Me sticking my size 8's in to the mix is not very likely to improve an already difficult time for a child and their family. I am really pleased though that there are parents out there who are happy to let their children find comfort, such love and care in the face of much intolerance is a really positive thing.

As for Trangender Trend, I personally find it quite difficult to find assurance that they have the best interests of trans children at heart. That's just my opinion, it's unlikely to change but I'm sure there are others

Transgender Trend comprise parents and professionals who work with children. I can absolutely assure you they do have the best long term interests of children at heart. Absolutely at heart!

Transgender Trend is the leading organisation in the call for evidence-based healthcare for children and young people suffering gender dysphoria and for factual, science-based teaching in schools. Our expertise was acknowledged recently when we were granted permission by the High Court to intervene in the Keira Bell v Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust judicial review

Established in 2015, Transgender Trend has led the way in advocating for the rights of children to reject gender stereotypes and be who they really are without discrimination, labelling or medical intervention to ‘fix’ them

We believe all children have the right to go through puberty and reach adulthood with their fertility intact and that this is a fundamental human right

We believe that children with gender dysphoria deserve evidence-based treatment and have a right to the same duty of care as any other child

We advocate for the rights of lesbian and gay young people to grow up as lesbian or gay. We advocate for the rights of autistic children and those with mental health problems or background trauma to receive proper therapeutic care, not a ‘diagnosis’ that they are really the opposite sex. All children and young people deserve treatment based on clinical evidence, not ideology

Absolutely! The amount of outrage and the demanding behaviour for my back up! And what really pisses me off was that it was all emotion with no facts to back up the claims.

Sorry. That was @Scepticaltank

@Justhadathought

As for Trangender Trend, I personally find it quite difficult to find assurance that they have the best interests of trans children at heart. That's just my opinion, it's unlikely to change but I'm sure there are others

Transgender Trend comprise parents and professionals who work with children. I can absolutely assure you they do have the best long term interests of children at heart. Absolutely at heart!

As I have said, I personally find it very difficult to find assurance that Transgender Trend have the best interests of trans children at heart. I'm really genuinely sorry if that's something you don't like or agree with but, that's how I feel. I don't think I'm unusual amongst trans people, both adults and adolescents in holding that opinion. The judges in the Bell case obviously disagreed with me but, I'd take a lot of convincing that they had the best interests of those children at heart too.

The judges in the Bell case obviously disagreed with me but, I'd take a lot of convincing that they had the best interests of those children at heart too

How you determine 'long term best interest' will obviously depend on factors such as one's ideological standpoint; as well as on how closely one adheres to or rejects safeguarding practices.

If you unquestionably accept that there is a such a thing as a 'trans child' ( meaning a child who has somehow been born in the 'wrong body'), as opposed to a child who is struggling or in distress, then your thoughts and actions will naturally lead on from there.