Suicide rate of those who have undergone reassignment

[Wandawomble]

Noticed a comment on the Times article recently posted - “The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.”

Can we find more information about this?

@Campervan69

Saw this on Facebook this morning. This poor mum and poor child have been lied to and duped IMO by those who should "first do no harm". So sad.

Jesus wept!

How does any parent come to terms with having supported a child to do that to themselves.

How does the child/adult come to terms with the feelings of failure, despondency, frustration?

Just ONE story like that should have stopped ALL such pathways. ALL OF THEM!

Yet we, us nasty child killing TERFs, are the ones who are cruel and unthinking!

Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

Counselling and non-invasive treatment should be the norm, the fact that surgical/ drugs are now available does not mean that they are the best course of action.
This. It is so backwards that many people calling for better access to trans healthcare seem to want experimental procedures on minors. In a few years' time we are going to look back and be amazed at how many people in positions of authority didn't question this.

But @Gerla that would mean returning to yesteryear's treatment of trans people!

Nothing was ever better 'ago!'

oh lord Campervan that poor woman :(

"I did everything right"

I dont know how they begin to come to terms with this.

I know it's "first do no harm" but it should be "first tell the unvarnished truth"

Surgery and hormones is and should only ever be a treatment of last resort. By definition this cannot apply to minors.

I have had the surgery but I also had it knowing that I exhausted all other avenues and for that I am grateful.

Far too many downplay the risks of medication and the conseuqnces of surgery and portray it as some magical solution. It is far from it.

I know it's "first do no harm" but it should be "first tell the unvarnished truth"

And thats the thing isn’t it

We do the best we can for our children but we need the truth to do it

Thank you for sharing your perspective Blue.

Bluelipstick

Until we have real and very serious research which is neutral and removes all political influence, we are stuck with a situation that suits no one. No one knows how to find the best route and I would bet one route is not the answer. We need something before too many mistakes are made, in all directions.

I would suggest that given the data which is increasingly coming to light such as this type of survey and others such reports it is better to do nothing as the mistakes make through medical intervention are not easily if ever possible to reverse.

@GNCQ

The single most frequent cause of death in males under 50 years old is suicide.

(When you include the over 50's it accounts for the 7th leading cause of death).

Most mature adult transsexuals as per that study are male.
It's possible there is a belief in some suicidal males that if they transition they'll be alleviated from their depression? But it doesn't work?

They're at risk of suicide because they're male and depressed, not just because they're "trans"?

There are a lot of questions, but inflated suicide stats are myth number 5 in gender ideology.

GNCQ They're at risk of suicide because they're male and depressed, not just because they're "trans"?

Males-only is not mentioned in the study: "All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973–2003." seems to be whom they were investigating.

If "the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers." as the Times apparently said, that is very worrying. Presumably "comparable peers" would mean "people who had not undergone sex-reassignment but were otherwise similar as regards age, sex-at-birth and other factors".

It may be that it is confounding factors, rather than the surgery and transition, that is behind the numbers. But what it suggests is that the surgery and transition doesn't help the problem, and they have their own significant risks in and of themselves.

Shizuku
Who is arrogant, me or the psychologists I am quoting?

My guess would be both. My experience of psychologists is that they always do think they know everything, until they have to accept that they didn't -- see "hypnotic age regression" and "lobotomy" and sundry other things which psychologists were convinced at the time were right and which turned out to be wrong and/or dangerous.

Of course being trans isn't "normal". Who said it was?

Um, isn't that rather transphobic?

I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair at this statement...

they "don't want "penis amputation", they want a reconfiguration of their genital tissues into a more typically female arrangement."

Bluelipstick,

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me if I don't do the right @'s or if I should have highlighted something etc..I only really wanted to talk about something I have experience of and this thread seemed a good place to start. From what you say, we've clearly trodden a similar pathway but have arrived at different view points. I'm keen to understand your view of yourself as an 'old school transsexual'. How do you see yourself as different from a transsexual diagnosed today? Aside from the ICD code on your paperwork being from an earlier version, what makes you think that? I know we all experience life individually but, I'm thinking in terms of a cohort for example, an old school transsexual.

I too transitioned some time ago, it seems like an age now and makes me feel older than I'd like. I was in my early 20's from 1996, having my vaginoplasty in 1999 and then some facial work in 2016 when my finances finally allowed me the luxury. I just don't think I have arrived at the point where I see myself an old school transsexual and somehow different from those who are on an NHS pathway today.

I do agree with you about the mental health element, in the absence of a physiological test or an identified gene which I wouldn't dismiss out of hand, then we are at the moment only left with feelings and the distress of a body that doesn't or didn't feel right. I don't think that diminishes the condition. Mental and physical processes interact all the time and now after around 80 years of modern gender treatments, with some truly awful interventions along the way, they appear to have arrived at a pathway that seems to be beneficial for most who follow it. That's not to say it can't or won't be improved in the future and it's not to say it gets it right 100 percent of the time but, I almost baulk at some of the suggestions I see around which would put treatment back 30 or 40 years.

I personally don't think things are really that different now to my own experience. I'm a similar age to you so, I'm guessing our pathways were quite similar. I can only speak anecdotally as I have a friend who went through the NHS pathway between 2015 and 2020 and her experience seems to have been very similar to mine apart from she waited 12 months to see a GIC which seems to have increased a lot more in the last few years. Obviously, I only have her word but, I've no reason to disbelieve her. She seemed to experience what I would call differential diagnosis over a period of time, round about a year including counselling and the involvement of several clinicians ranging from psychotherapists to medical Dr's. This was followed by about 18 months on HRT before a second independent opinion and a surgical referral. The whole process took her around about 5 years and seemed pretty thorough. I think the only real difference to my own experience was that the medical staff didn't seem to be as hung up on gender stereotypes as some once were. That, I can only see as a good thing. Given the amount of supervision in comparison to some other conditions, I'd find it difficult to believe that the incidence of inappropriate surgical referrals differ significantly from 20 or so years ago.

As for post op suicidal ideation, it all feels a bit meaningless to compare trans people with those who aren't. Surely they'd do better to look at a country where many are denied interventions for example the US and see if there is a significantly worse outcome for those who receive treatment when compared to those who are denied it. Personally, my distress initially was down to the dislike of my physical reality. Once interventions started to take effect it was more down to the way in which society treated me such as family rejection and the general animosity you can encounter when you don't confirm to the binary.

You're right, there's no magical fix but, on a personal level my pain score used to be 10/10. The treatment I received allowed that to sit at about 2/10 which in my book although it's not a measure of perfection it is a reasonably reliable measure of success.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble that much, I got a bit carried away, I'm just interested in what makes you feel you're old school and therefore different from those who experience a similar thing today?

Steph thank you for your post, it was very informative. I think the issue now is that it is children who are being put on this pathway at a very young age, rather than an adult making a decision.

Hand on heart do you think things would have been better had you not gone through puberty? Or was it better to wait so all are given the opportunity, like many posters have said previously on here, to see how they feel once puberty is over?

Thank you to both you and Blue. It saddens me that your voices are generally drowned out these days.

wrong to describe being transsexual as a psychological disorder.

Clearly if you can’t function emotionally, psychologically, socially or sexually because you reject the sex of your body without prescription medication and surgery then yes, that it’s a psychiatric disorder.

That describes many/ most transsexual people.

I suspect that what makes many women edgy is that transsexuals make up 2% of the people under the Stonewall "umbrella", and the rest under that umbrella are transgender people who as far as one can tell have no intention of having radical and life-changing surgery: people who feel able to state that they are lesbians but also state (in the same video) that the very idea of having surgery on their genitals makes them cringe. (There is someone with a beard who has stated both these things in a YouTube video of her own making.)

This means that there is no way for a woman to tell a transgender person from a predatory male person who has chosen to claim to be trans in order to gain access to places in which they really ought not to be if women (both natal and transsexual) are to be safe, such as women's prisons, women's hospital wards, women's sports, women's changing rooms, and so on.

This strikes me as remarkably hard on people who are transsexual, and who are liable to be looked at with the same suspicion when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

But what it suggests is that the surgery and transition doesn't help the problem

No it doesn’t suggest that. It suggests, as the same researchers have pointed out, that transition may help gender dysphoria but transsexuals still will likely need some sort of additional support.

Transition solves some problems, it doesn’t solve all of them. It may even create others. Whether they are easier for people to live with is for them to decide.

@Shizuku

"I hope you are aware that gender dysphoria has been listed in the DSM since 1980."

You are confusing being trans with having gender dysphoria.

Actually you're right a lot of the time it's AGP. AGP is also listed in the DSM under paraphilias.

Well. That's me told

@AfternoonToffee

Steph thank you for your post, it was very informative. I think the issue now is that it is children who are being put on this pathway at a very young age, rather than an adult making a decision.

Hand on heart do you think things would have been better had you not gone through puberty? Or was it better to wait so all are given the opportunity, like many posters have said previously on here, to see how they feel once puberty is over?

Thank you to both you and Blue. It saddens me that your voices are generally drowned out these days.

Thank you.

Personally I feel that they (Pb's) would have been beneficial for me, saving me the later surgery. I do believe those decisions are best made between the patient, their parents and the medics involved in their care. For myself, I struggled before puberty but it was a lot worse afterwards but, it wasn't an option back then.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Surgery and hormones is and should only ever be a treatment of last resort. By definition this cannot apply to minors.

I have had the surgery but I also had it knowing that I exhausted all other avenues and for that I am grateful.

Far too many downplay the risks of medication and the conseuqnces of surgery and portray it as some magical solution. It is far from it.

Thank you for sharing your experience Sex reassignment surgery is so drastic - I follow Scott Newgent who had FtM surgery in the USA and almost lost his life. Life long medication with unknown consequences. None of it should be undertaken by anyone who isn't a full adult and with whom all other treatment paths have been fully explored. Dr Az Hakeem a psychiatrist who ran a psychotheraoy c!inic found that 25% of his patients were post op transsexuals who regretted the surgery.

It is sad that no more imparcial and serious research has been possible yet. I cannot find the reference but I’m pretty sure GLAAD said the suicidal risk increased 7% after surgery. I imaging also with age. Aging as a transwomen must be very hard. I see pictures of bold men that transform themselves into reasonable good looking middle age women and yet the delusion must be hard to sustain as time passes.
One video I saw of a transwomen talking about transition said it doesn’t change your sex that all you gain is a more beautiful appearance and she was content after a long struggle to accept her own nature. I think that the ‘passing’ etc must really take its toll.

Thanks to Steph and Blue for their input.

It astounds me actually (as a middle aged woman) that men would voluntarily choose to try to resemble one. I do remember India W in Celebrity Big Brother being horrified that none of the men were interested. Any middle aged woman could have told you that they're after those much younger than them. Middle aged men don't seem to have such problems.

@Anovaneway

wrong to describe being transsexual as a psychological disorder.

Clearly if you can’t function emotionally, psychologically, socially or sexually because you reject the sex of your body without prescription medication and surgery then yes, that it’s a psychiatric disorder.

That describes many/ most transsexual people.

I'm just telling you what the psychologists say. If you don't agree, tell the psychologists.

@Terranean

It is sad that no more imparcial and serious research has been possible yet. I cannot find the reference but I’m pretty sure GLAAD said the suicidal risk increased 7% after surgery. I imaging also with age. Aging as a transwomen must be very hard. I see pictures of bold men that transform themselves into reasonable good looking middle age women and yet the delusion must be hard to sustain as time passes. One video I saw of a transwomen talking about transition said it doesn’t change your sex that all you gain is a more beautiful appearance and she was content after a long struggle to accept her own nature. I think that the ‘passing’ etc must really take its toll.

Thanks to Steph and Blue for their input.

I'd be surprised if surgery itself increased the suicide risk by 7%. If there were truth in that I think the NHS would have put the brakes on it a long time ago. As far as I know, around 300 M to F surgeries are performed on the NHS every year and a smaller number of F to M bottom surgeries. I'd imagine the vast majority of those are registered with a Gp and I'd imagine most, if not all suicides are subject to an inquest. I honestly believe that level of increase in suicide completion correlating to surgery alone in post op trans people would have rung alarm bells long before now.

Personally, I don't find aging particularly hard other than wishing I was 21 again but with the extra 20 years of life experience that may be useful. If we stay healthy and keep fit I wouldn't think we suffer any more than anyone else. Osteo risks are generally mitigated by low dosage HRT and because a roughly annual check is made of your bloods and BP/cholesterol levels, we are possibly at less risk than someone who hasn't visited the Gp in years. But, that annual visit and a patch change twice a week doesn't make me feel like a life long medical patient.

As for gain, the benefits and peace of mind far outweigh the risks, I don't think I'm unusual in thinking that. I do have to agree with you about middle aged men though, there is one sat in my living room who likes the idea of himself being attractive to younger women. I think it's his age.