I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

i also want to say i would have reacted in the same way too- i do when we're all agreeing!

i dont believe in not talking about things- if we all censured ourselves...

kids who do a lot of sport tend to be less inclined to this nonsense (ime)

I think overall it is good that you said your piece and you challenged their ridiculous views. How infuriating. If this girlfriend feels ‘unsafe’ she doesn’t have to come round again. Honestly I’m sure he’s fine for you to cook his dinner and wash his clothes, but he can call you dangerous and bigoted? I would tell him you’re awaiting his apology and point out how much harsher he was to you than his dad, perhaps showing his own prejudices. I wouldn’t apologise, apart perhaps for shouting if you feel it’s appropriate. How on earth can someone change sex overnight?!?! This is so worrying and crazy and I am so glad mine are not teens yet, but god knows how things will be in 10 years time. We will probably be able to change in to animals or aliens or something overnight as well!

This is the topic we can't touch. Dd knows my views, she also knows I'm a lefty that has put her money where her mouth is all her life. I listen to her and if she asks my opinion I give it. She is a young, autistic lesbian and my heart breaks that there are no spaces for her. All the lesbians are male so the female lesbians are all theybies. Homophobic, rapey, misogynistic pseudo religious bullshit.

@TSBelliot yes, my DD almost 18 is of the same mind. She has from her POV spent 2 years+ being really careful to use the right pronoun around a non binary student in her class and yet that student is very sneery and condescending to girls she sees as conventional. My DD snapped and said she had spent 2 years showing mx non binary respect, and it had not been a two way flow. Other class mates nodded. Then there was tumbleweed. I think the non binary student is a very angry person but 'they' have been taking it out on class mates, but still fully able to show respect to the teachers.

Unfortunately, they have all been brainwashed into believing that this sort of thing is normal! Hope things improve for you today, OP!

I think those that simply don’t talk about these things should do so, not discussing it is not good and is letting these crazy beliefs go unchallenged.

Stop doing any work for the ingrates, tell them you wouldn't want them to feel unsafe.

Handhold. I know from experience how hard it is to stay calm when this comes up.
DS1(14) started dating a girl last summer. A few months later this girl decided to be none binary, then moved on to male. So DS now has a boyfriend and identifies his sexuality as pansexual (not bi, apparently). So the trans issue occasionally comes up around the dinner table, as DS has tried the whole TWAW thing. However he also acknowledges that people can't change sex and that eg sports and prisons should be sex based not gender. So he isn't totally captured, yet. I have pointed out that my main issue with all the trans stuff at the moment isn't with trans people, it's with the reinforcement of gender stereotypes which feminists have been fighting for generations. We are regressing, it is not progressive at all. I do get quite worked up about this! It hasn't got too shouty yet, but he's only 14 and still quite likes me. There's still time.

The latest thing in our house is DS ordered some clothes online and got really secretive about it. Eventually showed me a photo and he's bought a skirt, some stockings and fishnet gloves! It's a fab outfit I'd have bought at his age, and told him so. In fact I may have expressed an interest in borrowing them. Rather took the wind out of his sails there I think! By all means play with gender stereotypes (why should girls get all the fun clothes) as long as you don't start saying that wearing a skirt makes you a girl... (I didn't say that, yet). Have to treat reasonably softly with the fragile teenage ego as he's had self harm and depression issues last year.

I'm mostly of the opinion that this is just a phase they're all going through and most (who aren't thrown into the system and pushed towards hormones etc) will look back in 10 years and laugh at their views. Much as I do on what I was thinking as a teenager.

Worrying times though.

I'd go with the 'agree to hold different views' angle, which is fine, our DCs are independent adults who can have their own opinions, but that discussions in the house have to be respectful & mature on both sides otherwise its the grey rock approach.

Maybe, just maybe, they were more respectful of your husband because he just asked questions and didn't shout and call him a little shit?

I do sympathise with the frustration, my teenagers (now adults) hold similar views and one went through a "non-binary" phase. But letting it descend to an actual shouty row is only going to make them more entrenched. Particularly when one of them has a non-binary girlfriend, they are going to feel personally attacked.

I would be telling them to take their wokedom and opinions and get their own flat. No way would I be insulted by the pair of them. Sounds horrible and abusive.

@SylviaPlath1984

I was just discussing this thread with DH and he said "but where is this coming from, if it's happening so often with kids of this age, is it school? Social media?"

I don't know the answer.... can anyone throw some light on this for us? Where does this mindset with the new generation come from?

It's everywhere. Almost all newspapers will claim that JK Rowling is anti trans or transphobic with zero evidence. No one speaks against it or they will be painted with the same brush.

Hand hold. I have been treading on egg shells around my dd14 for ages. I do not bring it into conversation ever, but I have asked her what exactly JKR said, she can't tell me. Don't even get me started on superstraight. Why does everything need a label? I can't seem to help my self harming daughter and this is just another issue on top. Its very hard, been going on years.

Hand hold OP, you're not alone. I too think you did pretty well!

I've said to my dd "I'm hurt that you would be so quick to assume the best of everyone else but the worst of your own mother"

I dunno? Do you provide a roof over his head....food.....encouragement, love?

If so, said person is rude. He would have been in the workplace for 4 years by now, in the not too distant past.

@SylviaPlath1984

I was just discussing this thread with DH and he said "but where is this coming from, if it's happening so often with kids of this age, is it school? Social media?"

I don't know the answer.... can anyone throw some light on this for us? Where does this mindset with the new generation come from?

The deep state

It's interesting that you used 'woke' in that context as an insult. I don't think you're quite as analytical as you think you are. Woke shouldn't be an insult

or maybe she has thought about it and decided the cap fits?

i use woke now when i see someone very pious- they're full of ideology and accusations about those those who fall short in their piety- and actually they have done fuck all to help anyone or do anything ever. (ops son is only a young man so his opportunities to do things are ltd but yeah, he sounds exactly like a woke little shit to me)

and hey, the word woman has evolved to include men- why shouldnt the word woke evolve to include asshole?

shame op didnt throw in something about his luxury beliefs too.

@JensonsAcolyte. 🤚🏼🤚🏼

I avoid the topic like the plague.

I'd have lost my shit with him. Rude little sod. I'd have majorly let him have both barrels at the 'GF doesn't like coming as they don't feel safe'. I'd have told him that SHE didn't need to feel scared anymore as SHE was no longer welcome! Pair of brats.

I do hope part of it is simply teenagers arguing day is night.

@JensonsAcolyte
Sending big virtual hugs but I think you've handled it very well
I'm not sure I'd have kept my cool 😎 in this situation I'll be honest!!!

@Skyliner001

I think you both went too far, both with insults and the things you said. It sounds like you both have extreme views. Hope you can both apologise.

Lil. It's really not extreme to know that mammals can not change sex. It's extreme to call someone extreme for acknowledging reality.

They are adults disrespecting you in your own home. Tell them to leave.

Hand hold from me. I really feel for you and worry how all this will affect ds(baby) in the future.
Keep fighting the good fight for their future. hold the fort; re-enforcements are coming.

I know, when i used to challenge my mother's pro-life views around the dinner table in 1990, she shut me right down. There was no way she was going to cook my dinner and be lectured at. And although i was passionately pro-choice, i still got that. Her house. Her table. Her time spent cooking my dinner. Young people with notions about terfs being bigoted have less of that awareness because they think their parents are like hitler and you dont need to show respect to evil. 😵😥

LumpySpacedPrincess we also have autistic lesbian teens, I think the autistic way of thinking really entrenches their thinking (at last for mine), adds another layer of complexity to everything.