I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Sympathies. Dd (nearly 16) and I don't discuss this subject. We've skirted around it a bit and we know we disagree. She’s still a big HP fan even though she thinks JKR is a transphobe. I've got a feeling her attitude is becoming a bit more moderate as she's emerging a bit from the angry teen phase, so I have hope.

Whole generations are being brainwashed. It's really scary.

I'd definitely be wanting a further conversation about why you copped the shitty attitudes and they were so much more respectful with your DH, regardless of the subject under discussion.

Infuriatingly, I think your DH should try to have that conversation with them, not you.

💐 and solidarity. It’ll get better imho Teens have to argue and yes I’ve heard same. It’s very difficult to stay calm and ask the questions as the answers will be flippant. DH same tactic question the basic, rather than offer explanations. I’m not the coolest.

My kids are also sold to this to spouting same insults, going out with teens with made up names, have unnecessary mastectomies, etc. After a couple of arguments they got the instruction not to talk about it with parents (cult line from youth group).

To the day this is taboo a very visible boundary. No go zone.

On the other hand... DD calls herself feminist (from a position where she would claim and defend that men had it worst from same youth group grooming). She is very butch and a little out of the trans danger zone 🤞🏼

I think they and yourself will remember this as the flighty years. I remember arguing with my father about politics and realising midway he was right but I wasn’t going to give an inch as a teenager. He probably could read it on my face but let me go and save face.

Not just teenagers. Mine are late 20s into 30s and after the obligatory JKR heated discussion, we've all avoided further discussion on these topics. This does make for unatural stilted situations though. My DH agrees with my views until there's a "debate" and then clams up! Lockdown has been a peaceful interlude, about to end.

@Chersfrozenface

I suggest if the subject ever comes up again, you say "I'm not discussing this with you, discuss it with your father".

On this topic, grey rock.

I agree. This is how I handle it. I've had more restrained versions of the OP"s 'discussion' and it just isn't worth it. Maybe one day we can discuss, but not now.

Your son is not mature enough to debate this with you.
His is a life of exceptional male privilege that he can’t face yet and so his unwillingness to confront that (for the un-cool reality that it is) is expressed as an attack on you.
I’d say that you’ve raised fab people that are willing to debate passionately but there must be no name calling and no deliberately inflammatory language like ‘dangerous’ - which, I’d be tempted to point out, simply highlights the blaring lack of danger your son and his partner face...! And minimises the very real danger that women and trans women face all over the world.
I’m not excited about facing this with my teen...who currently seems oblivious to any current gender arguments and was simply confused by Eddie.

I have an 18 year old dd who is a fully paid up member of the extreme woke brigade. To be fair, if I was their age I’d probably be the same. Back when I was that age it was all animal rights and veganism (I’m the same age as you- 41) and I did my A level English presentation on veganism and spoke about (in front of the class) how turkeys are getting their heads chainsawed off alive and blah blah blah. All very extreme and very cringe now. My teachers were horrified. I did get an A*.

I’ve learnt to just smile and nod and even agree at times for the sake of a quiet life and then just say to dh later ok well that was a load of bollocks. Dd has no idea we are like that. For us it’s just not worth the bother. I think as she gets older and mixes with more people- especially older people through work- her views will become more moderate. Their views are reinforced by being surrounded by their own generation all the time and a lack of life experience.

I had a similar experience with DS2 talking about the Asda checkout operators. He thought it was a non issue as the checkout workers could go and work in the warehouse if they wanted better pay. After a long discussion where I tried to open his eyes to implicit bias, and that people don't always make rational free choices, I told him I wasn't going to listen to a privileged young white male from a secure home with more savings at 20 than many women will ever see in their lifetime.

He isn't twaw, thank goodness, but the resolute conviction he's right and the world just needs to shape up and fall into line was really grinding my gears!

So handhold from me, too. I hope they grow up to be just like their dad!

We're in a similar situation, you're not alone - kids know my stance and we rarely discuss trans issues.

They think they know everything (teens) and that I'm wrong - but actually they have no rational argument apart from repeating mantras, there's no critical thought from them and it is akin to believing in a religion (although one finds that analogy "insulting").

I'll repeat the saying about kids feeling most loved with their parents so can lash out most easily with their parents, not much comfort though.

I would love to believe that mine will grow out of it, but I fear not.

One of my DC is at uni and doesn't always say what she thinks in case she gets terfed. We eye-roll to each other.

But I just won't discuss it with another of the DC because there would be a flaming row: we've already had some, um, strong conversations.

I really sympathise. It's so hard.

Jesus, are all the teens like this nowadays? How will the future be

Teenagers are supposed to rebel against society. It's just what they do. Being 'woke' is the latest cause for this. Just tell them they'll understand more when they grow up and leave it at that.

Don't get too hung up on what teenagers believe in. We were
all stupid at that age.

You poor thing. How come his girlfriend thinks it’s ok to slag you off? I would never have done that to a boyfriends mum! Presumably she feels comfortable doing that around your son, how disloyal.
I’d probably be a bit frosty for a while to be honest, the names he called you would have hurt me deeply.

Her friend from high school who I was thrilled was taking the same career path as me (me and her are women) is now using it as a reason she's male. I cant explain how bad that makes me feel.

This is appalling.

I have had one of these arguments, I have decided not to get on this topic at all, we can't agree, one of my children has shifted their understandings more towards a GC/sex can't change type position, one hasn't. It caused much tears.

I don't think, as someone else said, this is the hill to die on. You are not a lesbian fighting for your own rights, or a transgender person, so I would personally back out a bit and have less skin in the game.

It's more important that you continue to have a good relationship with your children, even if they are infuriating (and wrong) in your mind. Calling him a woke little shit doesn't achieve that. Not very nice to be called a terf, but you just have to breathe deeply, take the hit and stay calm and model having a calm discussion.

We have had discussions about trans and JKR since then without blood on the floor, as I'm not wholly approving of one position or the other, and I position it as a genuine debate. Only to be had respectfully and quietly though.

I would reiterate to your son that you will be fully respecting of his girlfriends pronouns and don't want to get into fights over this. Don't call him woke, don't call this a religion, that's provoking and hostile, why would you do that? Don't coopt your husband onto your side. Just calm it all down and maintain that you are going to agree to disagree in this household, that you welcome everyone, and that you are open to learn in a calm, non shouty respectful way. He will be much more willing to listen to you on other stuff if you do this.

I think you've had some very wise answers about teenagers and debate. I also think you handled it just fine. Sometimes good robust debate is what is required, even if it does descend into arguing.
I read the article on Richard Dawkins in the Times this week. It's very interesting as what he said was way more than JKR said, but as far as I can see there's very little backlash.
I think Eddie Izzard is actually shining a spotlight on all this with the girl/boy mode and more ordinary fence sitting people are seeing what's going on more clearly.

Oh dear OP. This sounds really difficult for you. I'm completely in your camp , I don't know how I'll deal with any of this if it gets more present in my home, which I'm sure it will. DD has a friend who is non binary and uses a different name, I'm allowed to know but her/their parents aren't so if I ever meet them I'm not to let on. I struggle to take it all seriously, my strategy so far has been non committal noises. What I really want to do is call it out as utter wankery but that will do more harm than good. So far I've resisted but I can understand how you lost it. It's such utter madness.
I hope you can build some bridges with your DS today. Have a handhold and a massive hug.

You didn’t do anything wrong OP. I use to have horrendous arguments about politics with my father calling him such right wing names when in fact he had grown up in terrible poverty and had worked in a manual job just making sure my brother and I had a better life than him. I started to appreciate that in my mid 20s.

Perhaps it is time for them to grow up and start paying their way and doing 50% of the chores in the house now. And remind them that they only have the time to think about these issues because they are male, white and privilege. If he was living in a camp in Syria it would be the last thing in his mind. Bloody teens.

I used to be very twaw my views changed their views still might change

@twiceasnice222

Teenagers are supposed to rebel against society. It's just what they do. Being 'woke' is the latest cause for this. Just tell them they'll understand more when they grow up and leave it at that.

Don't get too hung up on what teenagers believe in. We were
all stupid at that age.

I could go along with that were it not that the leadership of virtually every mainstream political party in the UK is either actively promoting gender ideology or has utterly failed to look at it critically. The police, the CPS, the prison system, schools, universities, the medical profession, social workers, many large companies - all uncritically adopting policies that say it's hateful to express any reservations about gender ideology, and often leaving sex out of the list of protected characteristics in their Equalities policies, replacing it with gender, which means they are misrepresenting the law.

Without getting into the subject, you admit that you got "shouty" and insulting about their opinions, and that you "told him he was a privileged, woke little shit". I simply can't imagine where these teenagers got their sense of critical engagement from. Could it be ... you?

Could it be... accountability culture, as they callnit?

When women hear rape rhetoric justified and people's sexual orientations dismissed as bigoted, we are under no obligation to agree to disagree

If you say something rapey, cry me a river if someone tells you that you did and it made you feel unsafe.

I feel bloody unsafe every time a man opines about women's duty to be equal opportunity sex dispensers!

Hand hold! ❤️❤️❤️

(For what it's worth I think you stood your ground and said what needed to be said, I'd be very proud if you were my mum, hopefully your teens understand this a little way down the line)

DS is at uni in London and is GC. There are 3 males and 1 female that have become trans since starting the course. They have even had lectures on TWAW and being an ally - could be the same in Brighton. DS reckons most don't buy it but everyone has to keep quiet.

Hopefully you have sowed a few seeds.