I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Interestingly DH was involved in the conversation and didn’t get anywhere near the abuse I got. He said he would be ‘superstraight’ as he’d never want to sleep with a man, and in his opinion TWAM and the kids both said well that’s up to you and went back to shouting at me.

I would imagine that's because your DH didn't call his son a "woke little shit".

Your reaction to him reminds me of my dad shouting at me that I was "rotten to the core with this political correctness bullshit" after I challenged his viewpoint that non-white people (you can guess he didn't use that phrasing either) were just naturally inferior to whites.

Fascinating ... they believe you change sex...I'd be having words about how contraception still needs to happen.... the details of how the options do depend on genital configuration aka sex... make them squirm

Or perhaps you can be a dad today since they showed dad a lot more respect so you would like the same

Sorry if that sounds flippant Fwiw had similar blow up with my DD who did however in the end see ( after questioning) ( aka shouting) ( I know I know ) that it would be unkind to women in some cases to expect them to treat TW as women

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

Interestingly DH was involved in the conversation and didn’t get anywhere near the abuse I got. He said he would be ‘superstraight’ as he’d never want to sleep with a man, and in his opinion TWAM and the kids both said well that’s up to you and went back to shouting at me.

I would imagine that's because your DH didn't call his son a "woke little shit".

Your reaction to him reminds me of my dad shouting at me that I was "rotten to the core with this political correctness bullshit" after I challenged his viewpoint that non-white people (you can guess he didn't use that phrasing either) were just naturally inferior to whites.

He does sound like a woke little shit, though 🤷🏻‍♀️

"I told him he was a privileged woke little shit"
"navel gazing bollocks"
Well done!

But yeah, they are fed this crap all the time, and seriously buy into it. It's not just a social media thing, our teenagers are being raised to see gender related superficial identity issues as really important. Not poverty, not politics, not morality, not even life skills or debating skills. Just who has which bits and what you can call them and if you can mention them and the right to pretend you are one thing because pretending is being blablablabla.
The best you can do if they try and dissect it through their idea of "rational discussion" is avoid the topic.
Unfortunately telling a teenager it is all just navel gazing bollocks means they will now be on to ChildLine about you

I feel for you. We don't 'fight' in our family. But I have seen dS1 (gay and super woke) roll his eyes at DH and me. I have however had two very long conversations with him which enabled him to finally begin to see that women have a right to be heard too and that being shouted at by men is something we are so used to that men trans women do it to us we recognise the make behaviour pattern.

I am so so sorry that it turned into a row. But stand your ground. You are not bigoted. You are protecting women who have for millenia been bullied and silenced by men i.e. people with penises, testosterone, built in urges to be right and obeyed.

I think women have to stay very calm and strong about this and consistently contradict the accusations. Saying TWANW is not the same as hating TW and never will be. They are two entirely separate states of mind. Keep explaining.

I have a 15year old dd. I started early with explaining what was going on. She understood by about age 12/13 all the gc arguments and was openly scathing of the trans ideology.

However, now it is far easier to keep her mouth shut and spout the 'be kind' mantra as if I were hurting folk with my scientific, feminist beliefs.

She's still a feminist and lots of issues/events make her irate but she doesn't go near terfdom.

I guess it's sensible. No-one wants to be seen as a bigot.

sorry that first sentence should read 'that when transwomen do it to us we recognise the male behaviour pattern.'

I know my DD has ideas about sex/gender and is "woke".

We don't discuss the issues.

I don’t think it’s just teens even. I’ve had some very heated arguments with my DP who just did not see what the problems were or why I was concerned. He would say I was ranting and so what. He laughs at EI but so do most older men. Slowly he is starting to understand. I send him Glimmers email occasionally to read just to show him what is happening out there. But he still thinks I have lost the plot.

He has never been worried about safe spaces, or women’s sport - you only have to read the latest British cycling transgender policy to see what is really happening in cycling and you will soon realise that there will be no sex based women’s cycling in a few years time - not 20 years but a few.

My heart goes out to you OP. I had this experience for the first time with my teens in early 2018, over India Willoughby being in the suffragette centenary all women's celebrity big brother house which I, in all innocence, said I thought was wrong. I had no idea what a hideous can of worms I would be opening with that statement, and the argument that ensued shook me to the core. I have 3 dds and had always thought we have a pretty lovely relationship.

However, although it was awful at the time, I'm glad it happened. As the mum to teenagers I had got used to kind of going along with things they came out with, practicing the 'that's nice love' response when they tested the water on things like tattoos and piercings, and tbh they were the kind of kids who never really needed me to put my foot down firmly. That argument really did mark a turning point as it was the first time I really stepped out of the role of background support human and uncritical cheerleader for my children, and asserted my own identity. Because it shook me so much - I really did believe my girls were really sensible and had sound instincts - I went away and did loads of reading around some of the assertions they'd made, because I wondered if I was out of step with current thinking. It only strengthened my position and made me better informed for next time it came up.

We do generally try to avoid the subject now. In the 3 years since we have argued about it twice more, most recently last summer (about JKR) but I keep it firm, factual and unemotional. And I sense their position is shifting as their experiences grow and life blurs those rigid lines of belief.

I shared this twitter thread (archived now) with my kids to give them a different perspective on their 'progressive inclusiveness'. Bombarding them with articles isn't helpful, but this is brief, succinct and powerful.

web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

Sending and handhold and wishing you lots of luck

i think you did fine-

he's calling you a hateful bigot- yes he is a privileged little shit.

sometimes its good for a kid to see their normally placid, diplomatic, careful parent really passionate about something.

i bet a lot went in- not now but slowly...

Both of my DDs think I am a prejudiced, old-fashioned fool on this topic. The rows last year were horrible but thankfully DH agreed with me 100% and said so.

We avoid the topic with DDs now.

Lots of handholds from me.

I enjoy making donations to those wonderful women and groups who are tackling the misinterpretations of the law. Every time I “dig” I feel like a feminist rebel and I love it. It helps me feel I am achieving something.

You are not alone. Most of my friends are in similar positions and I am very cynical about universities and the views students accept without any critical thought.

What a horrible argument - I think in the long term it might have been a great thing to point out their privilege. The rudeness of the partner feeling ‘unsafe’ while shouting at you in your home and eating your food blah blah blah. Insufferable.

It is though normal to have some huge rows. Unsettling stuff especially when they are so busy shouting at you. Women always the problem even when you can’t identify them. Oh wait...

My teen is one of the sporty crowd - he thinks it’s all wank. It’s bought into very sharp focus when you look at him and his muscle bound peers as they tackle and ruck on the pitch. He could disable or kill a teen girl with a tackle propelled by his 15 stone of muscle. I do think there are many groups of students who think the same - it’s just all so tribal and that’s not helpful. The uni crowd have always been privileged - I knew it when I was there that I had it easier than my working peers and wouid have it easier in the future too.

‘I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit’.

Yes. Yes he is. He needs to learn some respect for his mum. Is this also part of the new culture - not just think your parents are out of touch dinosaurs (as every generation does) but insult them and call them names that are usually used on social media alongside death threats?

I have every sympathy for you. I made what I though was a really innocent comment on social media the other day, and almost immediately had someone (who didn’t even know me) calling me out on my lack of inclusivity.
Big hold hand for you. I’m sure it will all get sorted out, though I think in future you and your children should agree that this isn’t a discussion to be had 😔

Omg, hand hold
That sounds intolerable 😮

Major handhold from me OP I've been there too.

Last time my DD was home from uni (Brighton too!) we had a huge row on this subject. It was awful she called me a transphobe, I called her a gynephobe....

At the moment we are agreeing not to talk about it but it makes me so sad that she can't see the real world - she is a woke overprivileged little shit too!

Sometimes I really despair and dread that she will only understand when something bad happens to her which is obviously the last thing I want.

It's her rights I'm passionate about and she doesn't want them!

I also run out of patience with one of my kids re this. I just say what I believe and what you believe. I personally don’t give two monkey farts what you believe in, it doesn’t matter because I don’t judge you. Then I incorrectly referred to someone ( ie her instead if they) and apparently I was the devil. So I said, if you think it’s that easy to wipe out hundreds of years of using this vernacular, the. I want you to refer to me as penguin for the next 24 hours. Not mum. But penguin. And if you get it wrong I will be most deeply offended as is my right. Of course this was met with joyous glee. Until I was called mum several times. Soon shut it down.
I know it’s not the same thing, but the whole topic is getting out of control. I can’t change automatically the what I’ve been hard wired to think and refer. I don’t care what you are or think you are, makes no difference to me. But don’t expect me to pander to you because you think your right and I’m wrong. Totally exhausting. Woke indeed!

Handhold from me too. Well done standing your ground, despite the kids’s stunning misogyny (and how foolish of DS’s girlfriend to go along with that). Thank heavens for your lovely sane DH.

A handhold from me too OP. I no longer discuss the issue with my 17 year old DD.

It’s frightening how any discussion or attempting woke teens to reason/be objective is closed down by classing anyone not agreeing with them racist/transphobic, hateful etc.

My niece said that a straight person saying they wouldn’t partner up or have sex with a trans person of the opposite sex (who was their same sex before) is transphobic. I just kept my mouth shut but I don’t feel it is transphobic to want a person of the opposite sex who hasn’t transitioned into it but was born that way. I don’t mind getting flamed for thinking each person can have their own preference without being transphobic.

He is privileged and woke and he was being a little shit.

It's interesting that you used 'woke' in that context as an insult. I don't think you're quite as analytical as you think you are. Woke shouldn't be an insult - it's a good thing that people are generally more aware than they were 30 years ago. It's used as an insult to try to shut down debate and awareness.

The problem with the current debates around sex change, gender, pronouns and binary sex is that neither side covers itself in glory. Both are very entrenched and often just objectively wrong. My PhD, without being too specific and outing, examined the history of defining and differentiating sex. You can't wake up tomorrow and announce that you're male when you were born female - well you can but you'd be wrong. But you're also flat out wrong if you think sex is always and absolutely binary in human beings. If you think that's the case then read Alice Dreger's and Anne Fausto-Sterling's work.

I actively avoid these debates because I just find both sides so entrenched and unreasoning. All I can suggest is that you all take deep breaths and admit to a bit more nuance - both in your approaches and within ideas about sex difference and differentiation.

The world’s gone stark raving bonkers. Thankfully my teen ds doesn’t subscribe to any of this bs, and long may that continue. Sorry op, sounds like an entirely ridiculous situation.

Do majority of this generation believe in this non binary stuff

It sounds ridiculous but it seems a lot of moms are experiencing i!

I was just discussing this thread with DH and he said "but where is this coming from, if it's happening so often with kids of this age, is it school? Social media?"

I don't know the answer.... can anyone throw some light on this for us? Where does this mindset with the new generation come from?