I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Oh and please outsole them all by turning the household vegan for two weeks. I'm a vegan myself but know how that will pisd off little shits who say they're justice warriors whilst noshing Nandos battery hens.

Out woke not outsole

@SylviaPlath1984

I was just discussing this thread with DH and he said "but where is this coming from, if it's happening so often with kids of this age, is it school? Social media?"

I don't know the answer.... can anyone throw some light on this for us? Where does this mindset with the new generation come from?

For my dd it’s mainly Instagram.

and tik-tok

We have heated discussions with me 24 year old stepson- not about gender but basically being born into privilege and how he said our generation (40/50 year old) had it so easy blah blah - hmm wasn't so easy when l was working 3 jobs to keep my head above water. And he has hardly done a days work in his life but doesn't see that. His dad came from a very poor large family and has worked his nuts off to get where he is today - comfortable but not rich by any standard. So we decided best to agree to disagree.

For the next person who cries ‘I don’t feel safe!!!’ Just ask - what the bloody he’ll is that supposed to mean? Do they think you will launch at them with a rolling pin? I only see violence and threats coming to those who are the supposed aggressors.

Dimwits and ninnies...

And ignore people who want to guilt trip you or otherwise abuse you

you are allowed feelings and emotions as well as opinions and facts and you are a human who does not deserve to have things that are important to you belittled and mocked by other people . Transgender ideology ( ideology , not people ) is harmful to women.

WiseOwlOne - good for her:

"I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, "
I had a small amount of sympathy for you before that statement.

Solidarity and a bloody big pat on the back OP. I cannot believe others posters are suggesting appeasement.

The fear of confronting these nonsense beliefs is what is allowing them to proliferate. It is particularly galling to hear this stuff from young males, even when they are your own children, because they are bloody privileged and it needs pointing out.

I would ask them if they realise it's sexist that you get shouted at for holding your views, but your husband doesn't get anywhere near the same level of abuse for holding the same views.

@Helmetbymidnight

and tik-tok

Yep.

The fear of confronting these nonsense beliefs is what is allowing them to proliferate

i agree.

@allBertramLacey

But you're also flat out wrong if you think sex is always and absolutely binary in human beings. If you think that's the case then read Alice Dreger's and Anne Fausto-Sterling's work.

People keep referring to Fausto-Sterling, and I keep going and having a look, and she's still conflating sex and sexuality, and ignoring the clear, thoroughly unambiguous fact that there are only two possible roles in human reproduction.

I honestly think this stuff is fairly normal. The narrative has changed but the need to disagree with your parents hasn’t. I can recall countless arguments with my father about New Age Travellers for example. I was a Indie kid, liked to tromp about in my big boots and talk about the scum bags building roads through woodland. If I had been invited to join a travelling group I’m sure I would have gone (probably would have come home after a week but I’d have still gone).

Nowadays I’m a very average middle aged woman, it happens to everyone unfortunately, no matter how enlightened you think you are at 18.

I was discussing this with DP over breakfast and we’ve decided we’re going to outdo our kids if they go woke on us. We’ll have our own pronouns that we will want respecting if they have their own set we need to adhere to. We will also adopt a sexuality we feel comfortable with, perhaps with some new clothing. I’m quite looking forward to it.

What a horrible way to speak to your children. No excuse for name calling and shouting. You're the adult.

Don't complain about people with differing views being nasty to you. You have been very nasty yourself and even now are just licking your wounds rather than taking a good hard look at what you are teaching your kids about handling disagreement.

Ultimately your parental responsibilities not to behave abusively come before any ideology.

If my mother called me those names i certainly wouldn't be putting weight on her opinion.

@betterfantasia

What a horrible way to speak to your children. No excuse for name calling and shouting. You're the adult.

Don't complain about people with differing views being nasty to you. You have been very nasty yourself and even now are just licking your wounds rather than taking a good hard look at what you are teaching your kids about handling disagreement.

Ultimately your parental responsibilities not to behave abusively come before any ideology.

You just got me a stamp on my Bingo card.

Thank you 🙏🏻

Faux indignation .... tick

I agree... he does sound a 'privileged, woke little shit'.

I’m a straight middle aged man so a bit of an outsider to both the feminist and trans sides. I’m broadly GC though.

I have kids and do worry about phases they might go though of identifying differently. Even at 10/11/12 years old they know and have friends who identify differently.

TWAM, biologically, clearly. I can see how kids and teens may feel they’re on the side of fairness and us oldies are not. Some of the language can make if feel like that too (the poster who said what their racist parent said in the 80s does sound similar to a lot of the arguments used now, especially if you’re a fired up teen)

I think the job of parent can be to not escalate arguments sometimes. We don’t always have to win, and even if they’re absolutely clearly wrong, maybe it’s best to keep lines of communication open.

Perfect apologise. Not for your views but your language.

And ffs, I know this is mumsnet, home of the instant LTB, but posters advising throwing kids out because they have different views should fuck right off

I find ‘Sounds sexist to me’ quite a useful comment.

Also ‘I expect I’m grumpy because DH refused to be the one who got pregnant. Humph.’

Also ‘Make sure that if X [family member] is ever unconscious in an accident, that the medics know he’s female, as that often determines the treatment.’

Gosh.

My immediate thought is that first and foremost you are his parent. Yes he's 18 but that's not 35. He's a young lad.

I don't think you should ever lose your s@@t with him. He is exploring and provocative.

Keep calm. Calmly say you better agree to disagree no matter how passionately you feel. Don't get into a shouting match with your child.

You can't argue your views into him and get him to see things as you do.

Hold the fact that you are the adult in mind always and don't be drawn into a childish fight with him no matter how serious the topic is.

One day he will have more respect and understanding.

I am all about debate. We’ve brought the kids up to always challenge everything, to be critical thinkers, no subject has been off limits.

Maybe that is part of the problem.

If you have been brought up to believe that people care about what you think, maybe it's difficult to comprehend that if your rights are restricted, it won't be because somebody cares about what is going on inside your head.

Ironically, perhaps generations brought up with 'children should be seen and not heard', 'don't talk back to your elders and betters', instinctively understood this.

(Not criticising your parenting skills OP - I'm sure they will get there in the end )

@betterfantasia

If my mother called me those names i certainly wouldn't be putting weight on her opinion.

If my child called me a hateful bigot he would be very lucky if I didn’t put my weight on the suitcase lid as I packed his belongings if he wasn’t rapidly apologising.