How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Excellent post, Recycled.

By all means continue your support of racist, patriarchal institutions silencing women with force

Point out where I did that. I criticised a specific dishonest campaign. But feel free to lie about me to make your point sound better, Dione. You're in great company.

For the hard of thinking:

Sisters Uncut have supported violence against women who don't believe TWAW

Sisters Uncut dishonestly present the suicide of several male murderers, rapists and paedophiles in male prison as "women killed by the state"

All documented in the below thread. Please feel free to educate yourselves.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4192410-Sisters-Uncut

I am relieved if you were not supporting racist, patriarchal institutions silencing women with force @Ereshkigalangcleg. I must have misconstrued you here:
YesDione, and also this week leftist "feminist" group Sisters Uncut hijacked the outpouring of anger at a young woman's murder to support male murderers, paedophiles and rapists who committed suicide as having been "murdered by the police" in their anti-police, anti-prison campaign. They also made irresponsible public statements which possibly might endanger the prosecution of her murder.
Top feminism!

What point were you making about racism and feminism?

Yes, you did misconstrue my post I think rightly criticising their dishonest campaign. You didn't misconstrue that I'm not a fan of Sisters Uncut, for the reasons laid out.

I didn't make any point about racism in my reply to your smear attempt, I merely pointed out that the left are not above criticism either and that supposedly high minded people like you could be lumped in as presumed supporters of some of their more questionable activism in the same way you just did to GC feminists on MN based on something you read on Twitter or whatever.

Did you have any sort of a valid point to make, or are you just going to snipe at other women?

I didn't make any point about racism in my reply to your smear attempt, I merely pointed out that the left are not above criticism either...

Ah right, it was Whataboutery. Or is that Squirrel? Previous to that post, I made one post on this thread, pertinent to the title. It was not a smear attempt.

Thanks for sharing that thread Potholes I'll have a good look at it later. I would like to do more to contribute to feminist causes and I'm learning more every day. For me feminism is for all female people and I find intersectional feminism in it's original form a really interesting concept. I'll keep following the different forums on here to expand my knowledge and understanding, I'm finding this a really interesting thread

Going back to the original point of the thread, I’m British Asian and I don’t feel excluded by the feminism that is discussed on FWR (but I appreciate that others may feel differently).

Perhaps in the current culture of “wrong think” and the ease with which offence can be taken, people don’t feel comfortable commenting on prejudice faced by people of different races. E.g. I would be wary about talking about the experience of Black or Muslim women because I don’t have a full understanding and direct experience of their situations, but I’d be happy to talk about the misogyny inherent in Indian culture, since that is something I have experienced.

I think that sharing links to organisations raising awareness of these matters in FWR would help the many intelligent women on this board feel more comfortable to speak about these matters and advocate for minority women. There have been some useful links on this thread already and I would welcome more (particularly interesting Instagram or Facebook accounts to follow).

From my part, I’d like to direct you to The Pink Laddoo Project, which raises awareness of how South Asian families celebrate sons more than daughters, and encourages people to share stories of how they have sought to overcome this prejudice. It is hopefully an interesting resource for those wishing to learn more about a form of sexism that still impacts many British Asians today (and which many of us are actively fighting against!)

Ah right, it was Whataboutery.

Just highlighting the hypocrisy. You did try to smear me by saying I am in favour of the police response to the vigil/protest, which you had no basis for whatsoever.

But let's not derail the thread further.

PerditaNitt I don't want to make you feel jumped on, but at some point (when you have free time! You don't have to do it this minute!) would you mind adding a post like that to the thread I keep chuntering on about?

I really don't like compiling posts about issues and charities I only know about through reading about them, as the likelihood I'll screw it all up to someone else's detriment is staggeringly high.

FWR threads often mention that single-sex spaces may be preferred by some women due to religious reasons (particularly in relation to changing facilities, etc) but I’ve not heard from many women confirming that this is a requirement for adhering to their religion/cultural practices. I’d love to know more about this from those whom this affects so I can better understand their views (rather than me just applying possibly incorrect assumptions). Apologies, if this has been addressed on previous threads that I have missed.

@PotholeParadies of course - I will add it. As I understand it, they aren’t a charity, more of a campaigning page run by an individual. I think they share some fantastic, inspiring stories, so definitely worth sharing more broadly.

Thank you!

@isequalityamyth If you want to do more feminism I suggest looking local.

It is easy and kind of comforting to "help" other women in circumstances alien to you that pull on your heart strings. It is a comforting way to fool yourself that you've got the patriarchy under control in your own life. And then you end up riding in as a saviour, which isn't great.

Start thinking about daily interactions critically. See the patriarchy at work in your own life. Then take whatever little steps make sense to you, donate time and effort to some cause local to you.

Don't worry about Feminism. Instead ask yourself if X is good for women and girls. In situation X did we assume somehow that the women are less valuable than the men (this often happens with time and distraction: women's time is less valuable than men's; women can be interrupted in their work but men should not be interrupted).

I expect you will find there is a lot you can do right on your doorstep that you hadn't noticed before.

Really good points 30% thank you.

@30PercentRecycled This is probably my first post on here. If I never come here again or even speak the word 'Feminism' or look at anything 'Feminist' again, I want to thank you for your posts on this thread, which I've screenshot/screenshotted/screenshat for reference. They've spoken to me like none other and are 100% my thoughts and actions, properly articulated by you except I come from an opposite or different angle than you, in terms of "my world". (Not speaking on specific social class - may be the same or not, it doesn't matter).

I think it's the most balanced stance I've ever seen from either side of this debate and there's nothing more for me to say or do after that. I agree, finally and completely with no discomfort or reluctance - something I've not been able to do on either side. Thank you OP for posting this thread as it's finally cemented where I stand via @30's posts.

I do think if people from both sides start admitting to doing what you wrote in your first post here, we may be able to get somewhere but it's not up to me to say what anyone does or doesn't do.

Very Intriguing are the posts re staying in ones own bubble, it does come across as know your place in the world. Don't educate yourself, don't offer support to anyone that is outside of ones bubble. There is a difference between support versus intrusion.

But if everyone stays in their own bubble nicely isolated, then there would be no need to ask how to make more women feel included in FWR discussions.

A fascinating concept. Division put forward as the solution to inclusion. Mmmm

Well I am working class and feel I am a feminist but I don't seem to fit in on this Feminism Board as there are 3 main issues.

Firstly I don't feel intellectual enough, I feel that if I express an opinion it will get picked to pieces because I don't use the right kind of language.

Second I find the obsession with Trans stuff especially alienating when I have a couple of male to female colleagues who; after all the operations & stuff they have been through to become women; would be so so horrified to hear that they are not and never will be considered women by some feminists.
Some of the transphobic language on here is very offensive.

Third there is the fact that many of you seem to support anyone who is against Trans people; however far right wing they are.
Who else do the far right wing hate?? Well, let's see, Jews, Muslims, anti fascists etc etc.

I'm an anti fascist & it made me very sad to see a thread on this Board advocating for reading the fascist news network Breitbart!! Because they are anti Trans!!

Then you wonder why you are alienating women who are not White, not as MC as you perhaps are, not as intellectual, not as transphobic?
You are alienating women who have a hell of a LOT more to worry about in life than Trans related issues!!

I expect to be fully 'jumped on' for expressing my opinions of course but actually I'm not bothered really,

@isequalityamyth I doubt your last post is what the pp meant nor is it how I took it but We see what we want/what we can only perceive.

If women are redefined to include anyone who identifies as a woman ie self ID then the definition of women is meaningless and all women’s sex based rights go out the window and that affects all women everywhere

Firstly I don't feel intellectual enough, I feel that if I express an opinion it will get picked to pieces because I don't use the right kind of language.

You could experiment by posting on an "intersectional" feminist page and use the wrong language, and see how that goes.

I don't think tone policing other women is the answer.

If gender critical voices were allowed everywhere, then possibly this forum might have a different focus. When you only allow certain things to be (very carefully) said in a few corners of the internet, then all those voices in that small space are going to sound very loud indeed.

I would just like to point out, by way of reassurance, to those who feel intimidated by the standard of debate, that they let me post here. Ex-homeless, left school with less than 5 GCSEs, still don't have a degree.

They've never told me to get out, so it's unlikely you have anything to worry about.

@PerditaNitt

FWR threads often mention that single-sex spaces may be preferred by some women due to religious reasons (particularly in relation to changing facilities, etc) but I’ve not heard from many women confirming that this is a requirement for adhering to their religion/cultural practices. I’d love to know more about this from those whom this affects so I can better understand their views (rather than me just applying possibly incorrect assumptions). Apologies, if this has been addressed on previous threads that I have missed.

No need to apologise!

This is a thread started by a Muslim MNer
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175451-muslim-women-and-trans-policies-in-the-workplace

This is a speech by Onjali Rauf which touches on the issue
womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/01/the-sheer-audacity-of-our-existence/?fbclid=IwAR1KKecBtTzhatggzu8IPQgXLc3_0YiWzz0cw24i_4DyO_8hSLvfIqF22xI

Born working class but proud to say I am def middle class now

It's not the intellectual expression of any argument that will cause it to be shredded. Clear language, honesty and joined up thinking needed

The trans thing is getting annoying. It's an absolute joke that people think that Male and female are some kind of identity. People refusing to accept that sex and gender are different are showing incredible lack of care for people. Especially people who are female who do not have a female gender identity who are then faced with the choice of experiencing sex discrimination and violence and restricted life choices or having major surgery to attempt to fit the the required physical mould of a man

Transwomen are not women. Their needs are different. It is horrible for example to remember the transman who died after being treated as a man by medics. Many transwomen understand they are not female and respect the differences.