Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

[TroubledBetty]

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some  EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.


 my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

[Binglebong]

I'm bumping this as there are some very knowledgable people in here.

[MadameButterface]

welcome to mumsnet op. ACAS are very good for advice on employment issues, or your union if you have one. Assuming you are in the UK of course ("restrooms" threw me a bit).

[NoToast]

Are your other female, Muslim colleagues also concerned. Can you raise this as a group? I can see why you aren't comfortable and that an enclosed facility doesn't count as single sex.

[Thelnebriati]

Assuming you are in the UK they are breaking the law. toilets can be single use or single sex.

'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'.
No thats not true. Women are legally entitled to single sex facilities. Even a gender recognition certificate does not entitle a person to use the women's toilet, as they are a proportionate means to a legitimate end, and women are the sex class that have to deal with menstruation.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?
No they shouldn't. You are entitled to single sex facilities, and you can't consent on behalf of other women who work there now, or women who may work there in the future.. Asking you for consent is a form of coercion and its illegal.

If they want to make facilities mixed sex they can make them in addition to the single sex facilities. Women should not be inconvenienced by having to travel further, ort to another building.
They should have performed an equality impact assessment. You can ask to see it.

[TroubledBetty]

Hi

Yes I am in the U.K. although my company have offices all over the world. I meant toilets but my friend who wrote the letter used 'restroom' sorry for the confusion!

Thanks for the welcome. I have lurked here are a little and read the threads on the Staniland question with much interest.

[Thelnebriati]

Lots of info here;
womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/3959227-UK-toilets-showers-changing-legislation-reference-thread

[Usagi12]

@MadameButterface

welcome to mumsnet op. ACAS are very good for advice on employment issues, or your union if you have one. Assuming you are in the UK of course ("restrooms" threw me a bit).

I wouldn't bother with ACAS, they're stonewall champions and fill on TWAW. Called them a few years ago for advice implementing gender pay gap reporting and was told to send out questionnaires to all staff asking what gender they wanted to be recorded as for the survey. My reply of what's the bloody point of doing it then if you can choose which category to be in was met with a dial tone.

[TroubledBetty]

[quote Thelnebriati]Lots of info here;
womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/3959227-UK-toilets-showers-changing-legislation-reference-thread[/quote]
Thankyou.

I read this

• In the UK there's no such thing as a 'gender neutral' or 'mixed sex' toilet; the two types or toilet an employer or organisation must provide are;
  single sex, or
  single occupancy.
  
  

• Single sex toilets must have cubicles and washbasins. If they are for men they can include urinals, if they are for women they must include a sanitary waste bin.
• Single occupancy toilets must be a self contained cubicle with floor to ceiling walls and door, a wash basin, and a sanitary waste bin.

Other toilets ('gender neutral or mixed sex) must be in addition to these. If you only have one toilet it should be accessible.
You cannot legally discriminate against women or disabled people by placing their toilets at a distance or inconvenient location. There are rules about how far employees have to travel to reach a toilet.

Most of the relevant info about how many toilets for men and women an org. must provide is in this document;
www2.canterbury.gov.uk/media/253481/sanitaryaccommodation.pdf

How many toilets should a workplace have?
www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm*

The problem is that they are basically saying I think that they have single occupancy toilets ( with a sink) within toilet rooms (labelled Women or Gender Neutral I don't know but it means the same to us). This worries me because they believe that they have covered themselves legally but I would not like to use them at all.

In answer to another question. Yes there are a few of us who are upset about this but nobody wants to say anything. Most of us are quite junior staff and are worried about jobs so some have decided to use the Disabled toilets.

[Usagi12]

FYI, I didn't actually swear in the call but obviously asked questions someone didn't want to answer.

[TroubledBetty]

My reply was not very clear.

My response to you @Thelnebriati was

"The problem is that they are basically saying I think that they have single occupancy toilets ( with a sink) within toilet rooms (labelled Women or Gender Neutral I don't know but it means the same to us). This worries me because they believe that they have covered themselves legally but I would not like to use them at all.

In answer to another question. Yes there are a few of us who are upset about this but nobody wants to say anything. Most of us are quite junior staff and are worried about jobs so some have decided to use the Disabled toilets."

[PotholeParadies]

I don't know what you can do legally, but to my mind it clearly discriminates against Muslim women.

[Howzaboutye]

You could call the solicitors Leigh and Day as they might support you with approaching your company, to put them right. They do lots of work in this area.
You are right, your company is wrong.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Asking you for consent is a form of coercion

I agree.

[TroubledBetty]

@Howzaboutye

You could call the solicitors Leigh and Day as they might support you with approaching your company, to put them right. They do lots of work in this area.
You are right, your company is wrong.

Any idea how much they would charge? I hope my community might pay for it but I don't know

[TroubledBetty]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Asking you for consent is a form of coercion

I agree.

I wondered about that because ther would be all sorts of women with different degrees of observation of faith. Also we have clients from all over the world visit our offices and some of these will be Muslim women

[Outofexcuses]

How about contacting the Muslim Council of Britain and asking them to contact your employers? They would surely have to take an approach from the MCB more seriously than they did your friend's.

[Howzaboutye]

You can get half an hour free at most solicitors.
Put some bullet points together from this thread to summarize the issue, and include the actual email wording from the company.
Have a chat with them and see what they suggest. It may be a letter from the solicitors is enough to kick HR I to shape and read the actual legislation rather than the stonewall PR.
That wouldn't cost too much. Or do a crowd funder for it?

Tbh we need a test case of Muslim women's rights in the UK. I know it's a bit scary, but we will all support you.
This is just unacceptable.

[Howzaboutye]

Oh yes! MCB is an excellent idea. They've just got a new head honcho. Funnily enough a woman, who may well listen and support you.
Go for it!

[Thelnebriati]

This isn't just about toilet legislation, they are acting in breach of The Equality Act. The single occupancy toilets are really for disabled people, so if they are removing women's toilets and forcing you to use the single occupancy toilets, they are discriminating against;

disabled employees.
Muslim women (and men)
Women.

(Also, toilets designated for the use of women must by law contain a sanitary waste bin.)
Really, ACAS should support you with your complaint but unfortunately they have been captured, so IDK how they would respond.

I would try ACAS first. They are free.
If they refuse to help, I would see if you can find a solicitor who specialises in equality law and discrimination.

[picklemewalnuts]

I am appalled that you have been put in this position. Would a letter requesting the policy be reconsidered from 'Muslim women in this office' rather than anyone being named, be a possibility? It should include your unease at no longer having a single sex place to gather, and the coercion involved in this being parachuted in without consultation,

[OhHolyJesus]

If you did a crowdfund OP I would donate and share.

This is outrageous and I really hope you challenge it, I hope you find confidence to do so as a group and take it all the way.

If I can I'll share links here later, only if they help, but do take this further. Very keen to know how it goes.

[CandyLeBonBon]

What an awful position to be in

[NonnyMouse1337]

Very sorry to know you and other women are having to deal with this. This is a very clear breach of equality law around religious beliefs to me but I have no idea what recourse you have, other than maybe legal action. Many businesses are captured by transgender ideology and are imposing rules and policies that contravene the law.

Unions are bloody useless as they are captured too and unlikely to help.

It might have to come down to a court case brought by a group of Muslim women like yourself to ensure the Equality Act exemptions that allow for female only toilets are enforced properly.

Hope you will get some good advice from the many knowledgeable posters here. There will be a specific sequence of actions to take first - like a formal complaint to HR etc before resorting to legal stuff, but worth asking some very reputable solicitors who are experienced in employment law and discrimination.

Although I understand that if you and the other women are junior staff, it must feel very intimidating to try to raise these issues.

[caramac04]

I’m not Muslim but I would be uncomfortable with what your employer is proposing.
Could you ask HR to look into this?

[InkyOctopus]

In our organisation we have separate washing areas for Muslim staff. Would this be a solution?