How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

The aim is not to divide, but to discuss how to make more women feel included in feminism

I don't call myself 'a feminist' and yet I think and perceive in ways that others may well consider to be feminist. I'm not sure that you have to 'identify' as a feminist to be woman centred. Any space which is centred on and welcoming to women in inclusive.

I would just like to point out, by way of reassurance, to those who feel intimidated by the standard of debate, that they let me post here. Ex-homeless, left school with less than 5 GCSEs, still don't have a degree

Self education is the key criteria. Confidence and ability to articulate your thoughts comes with time and practice; through reading and listening, and through a desire to further ones knowledge. Nobody arrives here knowing everything; or understanding all terms and concepts and so on......

Third there is the fact that many of you seem to support anyone who is against Trans people; however far right wing they are

You seem to have come with a pre -determined view of what you will find, and so interpret everything; all discussion, as 'transphobic'. But if you actually really listened and engaged you would find that this perception is one that you have created yourself, probably based on the fact that you normally discuss things with people who already agree with you on certain issues.

If you are interested in gender critical thinking however, you have come to exactly the right place

Then you wonder why you are alienating women who are not White, not as MC as you perhaps are, not as intellectual, not as transphobic?
You are alienating women who have a hell of a LOT more to worry about in life than Trans related issues

Some pretty sweeping generalisations there. Apart from the fact that this particular sub forum has become the place to meet and discuss issues that are largely verboten elsewhere; you know nothing else about the lives and struggles of the many people who congregate here, do you?

You do know that some of the regulars are not white don't you?

I’m working class and definitely see feminism and women’s groups in the workplace etc as targeted towards the middle classes. I’ve struggled in work being young and working class, saying the wrong things etc.

But it’s the same with racial equality. The voices most heard and listened to are those who are middle class. Those programmes to get more minorities into management etc attract those who have supportive parents who value education already. They’ve already got an advantage and often can’t understand why other kids can’t do the same.

We need to work harder to push working class voices of all ethnicities to the front. Pushing them forward means taking a step back and allowing them to speak.

We need to do this across our society. Having ‘posh’ black or asian people or ‘posh’ women in top management positions isn’t going to change anything for poor black kids and girls who don’t believe in themselves because their parents and teachers put limits on them. Schools and youth activities could make a huge difference and we need to campaign for this type of investment, and use the voices of those “communities”, not just the middle classes speaking for them.

I thought the guest post below was thought-provoking and eye-opening for the culture shock experienced by these MNers when they first joined MN and interacted with women outside their usual communities. It is a remarkable example of the power of social media to bring people together and to gain cultural perspectives.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/4186416-Guest-Post-Mumsnet-was-the-first-safe-place-I-had-to-realise-my-own-agency-now-I-am-campaigning-to-end-forced-marriage

Thank you OP for starting this thread. I read the recent Feminism thread on Black Mumsnetters and I have been thinking about the mix of perspectives, and especially those who pointed out that when racism and sexism intersect, it's not a case of "oh this bit is racist, oh that bit is sexist", it's a thing in its own right which is not something white women experience.

So I'm really glad there was a similar topic raised in FWR.

In the event the conversation on this thread had moved past the points I might have engaged with by the time I got to it but I really appreciated the suggestions for what WMCW like me can do to support feminist work by and for women with different backgrounds.

Don't worry about Feminism. Instead ask yourself if X is good for women and girls. In situation X did we assume somehow that the women are less valuable than the men

Brilliant post @30PercentRecycled. That, for me, sums up feminism, its ease and its amazing practicality.

Brilliant posts 30PercentRecycled as I’d the post quoting Helen Lewis

Op - I don’t think the point being made is saying ‘stay in your own bubble’ or ‘don’t education yourself’ it doesn’t matter how educated you become, you don’t know more than lived experience ... I think the point is that you should support via financial (if you can) or by advocating for a space for the voice to be heard but you can not and should not be that voice.

I read the recent Feminism thread on Black Mumsnetters

The thread that claimed feminism was 'born out of racism'? What a mess.

I’d = is

@ImpatiensI

I read the recent Feminism thread on Black Mumsnetters

The thread that claimed feminism was 'born out of racism'? What a mess.

I didn't take that from the thread, or any single message. There were different people saying different things. Some I agreed with and some I didn't. Either way, I think the best contribution from me in a conversation about racism is just to listen and believe, just as I want men to do when women talk about our experience of sexism.

Either way, I think the best contribution from me in a conversation about racism is just to listen and believe, just as I want men to do when women talk about our experience of sexism.

Really? You just listen and believe no matter what's said? So when someone states 'feminism was born out of racism' you just accept it without thinking? I don't understand how that's helpful.

Ah right, it was Whataboutery.

Just highlighting the hypocrisy. You did try to smear me by saying I am in favour of the police response to the vigil/protest, which you had no basis for whatsoever.
But let's not derail

@Ereshkigalangcleg, you did not support the women being oppressed by the police in your post. Nor did you condemn the heavy handed police actions against women. Your response, from a feminist POV confuses me.

And in fact I don't want men to just listen and believe when they hear from women about sexism, I want them to show they fully comprehend and then I want them to take action in their lives to make a difference.

want them to show they fully comprehend and then I want them to take action in their lives to make a difference.

Don't you want that for women too?

When they tell you about their experiences of racism?

My post was to Blibbyblobby. Stop trying to manipulate what people are saying, it's a really crass technique.

you did not support the women being oppressed by the police in your post. Nor did you condemn the heavy handed police actions against women. Your response, from a feminist POV confuses me.

I think you are easily confused. My post was about the campaign I specifically mentioned. Nothing else.

My post was about the campaign I specifically mentioned.

What were you saying about the campaign you specifically mentioned?

It is not the right thing to do for, I'm assuming, a white woman to post on a thread where black women are talking about racism/ sexism because one poster (or more) is saying something that sounds really wing wrong.

Black women are more than capable of pointing stuff out and arguing a point.

It's a distraction. And not all posters are in good faith.

If a bloke rushed in every time someone on FWR said that the concept of woman was a colonialist concept that didn't exist everywhere before. Or to counter an argument that sex segregated spaces are the same as segregation. It would be incredibly irritating.

If there is a general agreement that feminism came from racism then it's worth thinking why so many agree with that, what their reasons might be etc. Not rush in and start a row.

There are a lot of posters not in good faith on FWR and I have no doubt the black mumsnetters topic is as well.

I followed the fight to get it and the racism and anger at the idea was awful.

If it's not your thing then listening and learning. Trying to understand why views you might disagree with are held. Consume or discard as you wish after thought.

And if you want to help current groups then seek out orgs etc that do that, read the stuff, donate if you can. Raise the issues with people you talk to. Make them aware, maybe make them think.

I'm going to read that thread now anyway see what you're all taking about.

Started reading the thread.

The first 10 or 12 responses, all but 1 say I'm white...

So erm.
I'll keep reading.

Meh.

Mostly white women posting.

Not great I think.

Some usual suspects drawn in by feminism in the title putting the boot in

The comments from black women which sadly are interspersed amongst women who say they're white and are there to defend/ criticise the feminist board are interesting.

Pointing out we're not the USA. Talking about how they feel.

I think if you find it hard to read posts saying I've fucking had it with feminism it focuses on white women. Then that's ok but think about why it feels hard.

When it comes to our media and institutions, it's true. All over the place.

I don't think that thread is much to 'prove' anything as it seems to full of white women with an axe to grind TBH.

Not having a go at you, NiceGerbil, for having a look, but this thread has given me an icky feeling all the way through. I feel as if someone's trying to coax denizens of FWR and lurkers into the other topic, in order to get a fight going.

I don't like it.