How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

with this being your perspective, i have nowhere to go with this conversation.

Oh well.

This conversation is happening anyway. We are having it. It's up to you whether you participate or not

#NoDebate is a bit 2016 isn't it?

"......scientifically recognised that trans people's brains align more with their current gender than their sex (assigned gender at birth), it is pseudoscientific to try and state that trans women are men".

It's certainly pseudoscience to suggest that trans women are anything OTHER than biological males. Which they are. In every cell of their body. Genetically. For life.
Trans women have male brains because they are biologically male. You cannot 'feel' you're way out of your genetic reality.
And as far as I know there has never been a peer reviewed scientific study that has proved conclusively that trans persons brains 'match' their chosen gender more than their actual sex at birth.

The fact that you use the word "pseudoscientific" to describe immutable and established scientific FACT is bizarre and frightening.

Begaydocrime

Imagine, if you will, that there is an initiative to inceease the participation of various minority groups in politics at a political conference, so they've reserved places for representatives who come from those groups.

Amongst those places, there is a place reserved for a transwoman.

Am I entitled to take it?

Brains can't align with a sex , there is no way to sex a brain , there are no innate features significantly more present in females than males. Only when it comes to learnt changes around trauma can you see that post surgical transwomen often have that marker which is more common in women than men

Pseudo science there all right

Begaydocrime just out of curiosity, why don't you believe that trans women are women?

Why do you believe they are?

@isequalityamyth

I’ve been reading, which is why I’m sitting very uncomfortably at the moment.

It’s all very well saying grass routes organisations should sort out their own issues, or that well it’s a wider issue on other boards - it shouldn’t be on here. Arg that’s exactly what I have concerns about. Surely as women we should be supporting the equality of all women in our society. Fighting for equality for all of us, not just the last few steps for a few.

There are infernos out there. And it just seems like we are being distracted - maybe purposefully.

FFs just get on and include people who aren’t like you and stop being so patronising.

Working class non Anglo Saxon feminists like me have been getting on with feminism for a long time, it isn’t helpful for you to come along and tell us we’re doing it wrong because you’ve just realised you’ve been excluding us

So if you ban a group of women, from the women's march, because they have a different view of the balance of justice in some area, or from the discussion of women's rights and women's issues, you no longer have a women's march, ora discussion by women for women. You have kind of political party.

Smoked duck First of all thank you for the resources on eating disorders outside the West, it sounds interesting and I will take a look.

I don’t think you and I are very far apart on feminism. When I say I don’t think certain ideas belong in feminism I am only talking about ideas not about women who subscribe to them. I too was very disappointed when I saw established feminists attacking Posie Parker for having the ‘wrong views’ and talking to the ‘wrong people’.

All I mean is that women who bring controversial views into feminist spaces like this board should expect to have them challenged and disagreed with. They should be prepared to make their case and back it up with evidence. If the views are completely outside feminism because they don’t deal with women they should be prepared to be told that. This is not failing to be inclusive. Feminism has a right to set boundaries. All women should be allowed to bring their arguments to the table but not all arguments have to be agreed with. I think the more voices we hear the better we will be able to support women.

On the free speech issue I would always rather err on the side of allowing difficult opinions rather than risk allowing cancel culture to flourish in feminism so I might tolerate views on religion, for example, that others object to. The point is that when you see views expressed that you disagree with you should absolutely question and challenge them but not cancel a whole person for one viewpoint. We seem to have lost the ability to disagree with an argument without cancelling a whole person’s right to speak.

And I can’t believe I have to say this but by all women I do not mean to include men who identify as women.

sillydoggy

Yes, I mean as far as things outside feminism, I guess the thing is that many things can touch on it in some way. We might have different views on technological issues, or climate change, for example. I've seen people who were very much supportive of certain approaches to environmental issues, because they were looking at it from what they thought was best for the environment and humanity, be told that from a feminist perspective what they were suggesting would impact more on women. And maybe that was true, but even if it was that doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. And how do you weigh those things - it's not obvious.

So they might say - this is not about feminism, and someone else would say - it is, and is the suggestion then that the former person is therefore taking a non-feminist position?

I think we are in the territory of two things can be true at the same time. A project could be best for the environment but bad for women, the woman taking the feminist position would say ‘ I can see it’s a good idea but it is not worth the cost’ the environmentalist would say ‘we need to put aside the impact on women to save the environment’ hopefully someone would come along and say ‘can we find a compromise’. So it’s not to say that either is wrong just that different things are important to different people. This can do your head in if it is two things you are passionate about and hopefully this drives the compromise position but sometimes you just have to decide what is important to you and that is very personal.

This conversation is happening anyway. We are having it. It's up to you whether you participate or not

#NoDebate is a bit 2016 isn't it?

This. That ship has sailed.

@Sillydoggy

I think we are in the territory of two things can be true at the same time. A project could be best for the environment but bad for women, the woman taking the feminist position would say ‘ I can see it’s a good idea but it is not worth the cost’ the environmentalist would say ‘we need to put aside the impact on women to save the environment’ hopefully someone would come along and say ‘can we find a compromise’. So it’s not to say that either is wrong just that different things are important to different people. This can do your head in if it is two things you are passionate about and hopefully this drives the compromise position but sometimes you just have to decide what is important to you and that is very personal.

Yes, I think this is how things should work.

However, often what happens is someone says "that is bad for women (in my view, often unsaid), therefor it's a non-feminist position and you can't be a feminist and think/argue that. It's not part of feminism.

But where does that leave the woman saying it, basically she's being told, this is a feminist issue and that defines the overall answer you can give.

You see a similar problem acknowledged when women will talk about feminism for black women, or disabled women, that their feminism exists within a larger set of beliefs and views about reality, many of them touch in certain ways and are interdependent. And that's generally accepted. But if you are an observant Muslim woman, or even a Tory, there is a good chance it may not be.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This conversation is happening anyway. We are having it. It's up to you whether you participate or not

#NoDebate is a bit 2016 isn't it?

This. That ship has sailed.

i'm happy to have this conversation, as long as you're willing to put in the effort to listen and be open minded. Otherwise it's honestly not worth my time

Happy to have a conversation. You'll have to do better than you've done so far to make a compelling argument for why we should give up/stop fighting for sex based rights and female only spaces and services though.

Also, are you listening and open minded?

i'm happy to have this conversation, as long as you're willing to put in the effort to listen and be open minded. Otherwise it's honestly not worth my time

Just personally, I'm not 'open-minded' to the belief that males can be women if they say so, and that scientific fact can be labelled 'pseudoscience' if it doesn't fit belief. If that's what you believe then I'd obviously be wasting my time in conversation.

'However, often what happens is someone says "that is bad for women (in my view, often unsaid), therefor it's a non-feminist position and you can't be a feminist and think/argue that. It's not part of feminism.

But where does that leave the woman saying it, basically she's being told, this is a feminist issue and that defines the overall answer you can give.'

People disagreeing with you and even getting quite fighty happens across MN.

Loads of people on FWR over the years have disagreed with me. It didn't make me feel like they said that's not feminism and so I felt excluded.

There is no one feminism. There's loads of opinions. Some are polar opposites (sex work is work for example).

I do think that it's normal for most people, if they start feeling got at, they tend to focus more on those posts, than ones that agree or are more middle ground. I've seen it happening and I've been guilty of it.

Yes women who are raising issues that you are not close to should be listened to. But, if there are reasoned arguments then they should be made. Maybe in a not fighty way. That's when it gets personal and turns into a row usually.

It is difficult but in the end if I have an opinion and good reasons for it then I'm going to post it. Albeit if it's not something I know about first hand then stating that as a caveat.

The other point is that feminists are usually pretty tough. They have to be. So debate usually is going to be ok.

i'm happy to have this conversation, as long as you're willing to put in the effort to listen and be open minded.

Fab. So where we we ... NiceGerbil said, 'Males are not a group of women.'

I agree with NiceGerbil.

@NiceGerbil

'However, often what happens is someone says "that is bad for women (in my view, often unsaid), therefor it's a non-feminist position and you can't be a feminist and think/argue that. It's not part of feminism.

But where does that leave the woman saying it, basically she's being told, this is a feminist issue and that defines the overall answer you can give.'

People disagreeing with you and even getting quite fighty happens across MN.

Loads of people on FWR over the years have disagreed with me. It didn't make me feel like they said that's not feminism and so I felt excluded.

There is no one feminism. There's loads of opinions. Some are polar opposites (sex work is work for example).

I do think that it's normal for most people, if they start feeling got at, they tend to focus more on those posts, than ones that agree or are more middle ground. I've seen it happening and I've been guilty of it.

Yes women who are raising issues that you are not close to should be listened to. But, if there are reasoned arguments then they should be made. Maybe in a not fighty way. That's when it gets personal and turns into a row usually.

It is difficult but in the end if I have an opinion and good reasons for it then I'm going to post it. Albeit if it's not something I know about first hand then stating that as a caveat.

The other point is that feminists are usually pretty tough. They have to be. So debate usually is going to be ok.

So, I've already said that I am not talking about MN. I'm talking about feminist discourse, which includes MN I guess but also women's groups and universities and magazines.

I think it's pretty naive if you think that all women's voices are listened to if they have an argument to support them, whether or not they toe the line on feminist orthodoxies.

And there is absolutely a lack of respect for those people, it's not just about people disagreeing with the argument. Look at the discussions about Posie Parker that happen on here. The argument is that she cannot be a real feminist because she believes x y or z. You similarly regularly have the view that you must be on the political left to be a feminist, and those who aren't are not allowed to claim feminism.

And it's the same if you go to most in-person meetings as well - the whole ejection of women from these meetings because they won't accept TWAW is not really all that new a phenomena. It was shocking to women who had previously been part of the in group. Not so much to others. Similarly in academic feminism.

Why do you think so many women have felt really cut off from feminism?

Ah I was talking about on here.

A few points.

Feminism is not a political party with an agreed message. It's a load of different women with different experiences, focuses etc.

Most movements have internal disagreements and division, and those which are mainly left are very prone to this.

PP has never said she's a feminist. At least she didn't when she used to post on MN.

Have whole groups of women been ejected from meetings about women/ women's rights in recent history in the UK on other issues?

Also. There are lots of different aspects of tackling the oppression of women and girls. To have groups that focus on those areas is not a bad thing. And raise awareness etc. If everything was on the table, there'd be a real problem with what is the most important.

You talk about feminist orthodoxies. Which ones? Sex work is work, or men paying for sex is exploitation? There are plenty of other examples.

'Why do you think so many women have felt really cut off from feminism?'

Most women I have met in my life see feminism as a dirty word. Due to the various stereotypes propagated (by men).

On MN most women who aren't feminists say things like
We don't need feminism
Feminists are angry man haters
Etc

And where stuff like the shitshow that is the WEP mission statement exists. Well. Just don't join etc. Focus attention elsewhere.

Finally. There are feminist groups for eg lesbians, black women etc. I am neither excluded nor included. I can listen but if I have difficulty understanding their priorities or issues that's ok. And I would not want them to concern themselves with including all and sundry.

So it seems the theory is fine. Feminism is about ideas so all ideas come to the table some are rejected and some are accepted as mainstream and some are continually argued over. Women always have a right to bring their ideas to the table but they have to be prepared to have them discussed and challenged. So far so good.

BUT - some feminists are really unpleasant. They bully women when they disagree with them, they indulge in cancel culture the minute someone steps out of mainstream thinking, they deliberately exclude whole groups of people for political rather than feminist reasons. By this last I mean statements like Tories can’t be feminists, Religious women can’t be feminists, SAHMs can’t be feminists.

I spend quite a lot of time arguing against the ‘be kind’ message but I would absolutely support a ‘be respectful’ message. Argue against the idea not the women and try to discuss and debate rather than argue. Explain why you don’t agree rather than writing a hit piece condemning another woman. No cancelling and deplatforming.

In my opinion there is less of that on FWR than there is in the wider feminist world but perhaps that’s because so many more women have a voice here so there so there is always someone to support a different idea.

Posie Parker may never have claimed to be a feminist but in my opinion you don’t get much more feminist than fighting on the frontline to protect the rights of women and girls.

Some people are unpleasant bullies. It's not unique to feminism is it?

More helpful would be "given we know that sone people are nasty , how do we ensure that they do not dominate the conversation?"

When does robust debate melt into domineering behaviour?

What distinguishes popular opinion from a pile on?

How do we decide which voices should be amplified and which ignored ? How do we handle harmful and disruptive people without making minorities fearful of speaking out ?

Some environmental activists are unpleasant bullies. That’s why I don’t care about green issues.

I don’t use the recycling bins at home and work because once someone was really mean to me on MN. And also because I don’t agree with every single policy and action of every green organisation everywhere.

They need to work harder to make it more acceptable and attractive to me. Did I mention me ? It’s not about global warming or marine pollution, it’s about me and my feelings.

Ok so I nearly made the point that bullies are found everywhere but since we were talking about feminism I really didn’t think I had to spell that out.

I think you are right midge babe given we have these people how do we tone down the bullying while keeping the robust debate. So far this mostly just involves shouting at each other and that hasn’t proved very successful so far!