Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

@gardenbird48

Rights need to be balanced. - agreed

Trans gender people as a class are not a threat to non-transgender people as a class, so you can't ban an entire class of people without a very good reason.

It is not trans people as a class that we are talking about though. We are talking about male people as a class (surely we’ve been here before? ). In certain circumstances for the purposes of safeguarding and privacy we need (and have the legal right to) exclude all male people from spaces and services.

People born female, however they identify are not excluded from those spaces. Therefore not excluding all trans people, just the male ones.

Trans women as a class are not a threat to cis women. By all means point to the evidence from a non-GC feminist source that trans women are as violent as cis men. Cherry-picking examples of individuals is not evidence.

On the basis that trans women have been using the loos that match with their gender for years, and that self-ID in other countries has not affected crime stats in bathrooms in the States, it's simply not true.

Likewise, even if you accepted that trans women as a class were no threat to cis women, you would still oppose trans women using women's loos, so again, this argument is disingenuous.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

"This may surprise you but the brain is a body part."

Reducing me to a body part, grumble, grumble.
Why then does that body part superceed my muff?

No.

HTH, OP.

(At least not in the sense the ideologues mean it: that there exists an ineffable essence intrinsic to any person called a gender identity. I accept it as a term to describe a person's faulty beliefs/wishes about themself, but otherwise, no. No such thing.)

[quote Gerla]@shizuku Could you please tell me what as a woman I have in common with a tw and how does it help either of us to be in the same category? We have completely different needs.[/quote]
Depends on you, depends on the trans woman. Lets take a young transitioner who passes easily, and lets assume you are a fairly average woman.

So you both experience sexism on a daily basis, you are both afraid of being raped, you are both subject to the gender pay gap and limitations on the progress you can make at work.

You both have boobs, and female fat distribution, and a voice in the typical female ranges, and female musculature, and you probably both want to be mothers.

I mean I could go on, but the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant. If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

Why then does that body part superceed my muff?

That must tickle.

On the basis that trans women have been using the loos that match with their gender for years, and that self-ID in other countries has not affected crime stats in bathrooms in the States, it's simply not true.
Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe that males as a sex class commit most of the violence against women?
2. If so, what do you think happens that changes this when a male says "I am a woman"? In any case it's not just about safety. It's about the right to female spaces. I have travelled in female-only sleeper cars on trains and slept in female-only rooms in hostels. I could not have done that if a male had had the right to be there. Obviously that changes nothing for you. It's only women who are being asked to give something up.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

"This may surprise you but the brain is a body part."

Reducing me to a body part, grumble, grumble.
Why then does that body part superceed my muff?

Take 2 humans. Remove the first one's muff, and then have a conversation to see if they are still the same person.

Now remove the second one's brain, and try the same test.

You have now discovered the difference between who you are and what you have.

Even if there were an incontrovertible objective test for gender identity, GC feminists would still not accept that trans women are women or trans men are men, so we can put down objections based on subjectivity as disingenuous. So saying "we can prove that transgender peoples' brains are different," even if it were true, simply won't wash with GC feminists.

Again, and as always, we have to have a common reference before we can agree on anything. If we're disputing whether someone is something or not, we must first determine what that something is and what conditions someone must meet to be that something.

Objective test - easy enough to define:
has right or wrong answers and so can be marked objectively; repeatable - same test done with different tester and testee delivers same outcome with same answers; externally verifiable.

Gender identity - personality based on preference or dislike for sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex. No agreement currently exists as to how many stereotypes one must embody to meet the threshold for one or the other gender identity; no agreement as to the degree of acceptance required (wholeheartedly embracing; acquiescing; tolerating; objecting; rejecting; loathing); no agreement across time and space as to the actual stereotypes - what is coded one way in this society is coded another way in that one. What was coded that way a hundred years ago is coded the opposite way now. No agreement currently exists that it is a universal human trait. And if all those who lay claim to a gender identity called woman are women, what happens to those women who state they don't have a gender identity?

Which brings us right back to the start - what is the definition of a woman? What is the objective test for membership of the group called women?

So, I reject your assertion that I would not accept a claim that is based on logic, reasoning, material facts and evidence. Because if we had agreed a mutually acceptable basis for the understanding of the terms and the necessary conditions that must be met for someone to qualify that holds up to scientific analysis, I would concede the point.

Lets take a young transitioner who passes easily, and lets assume you are a fairly average woman
Let's not. You always seem to want to take as an example a young tw who passes easily. Most TW do not pass. Even those who do are taller and stronger than women.

the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant
You really have no idea do you?

Now remove the second one's brain, and try the same test.

Ah but what about if you remove their full bottoms?

Seriously, Shiz, I really don't want to imagine what your lab looks like.

@Gerla

On the basis that trans women have been using the loos that match with their gender for years, and that self-ID in other countries has not affected crime stats in bathrooms in the States, it's simply not true. Two questions for you: 1) Do you believe that males as a sex class commit most of the violence against women? 2) If so, what do you think happens that changes this when a male says "I am a woman"? In any case it's not just about safety. It's about the right to female spaces. I have travelled in female-only sleeper cars on trains and slept in female-only rooms in hostels. I could not have done that if a male had had the right to be there. Obviously that changes nothing for you. It's only women who are being asked to give something up.

Trans women aren't males, and the evidence suggests they do not offend at rates typical of males:

Here's a study:

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

And here is the scientist who headed the study discussing the results:

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

"Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."

"As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group."

"The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse."

"There you have it. To be clear: No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic. No, the study does not prove that trans women are rapists or likely to be rapists. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a euphemism for rape. No, the study does not prove that trans women exhibit male socialization. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a claim that trans women were convicted of the same types of crime as cis men."

Trans women aren't males, and the evidence suggests they do not offend at rates typical of males:

Trans women as a class are not a threat to cis women. By all means point to the evidence from a non-GC feminist source that trans women are as violent as cis men. Cherry-picking examples of individuals is not evidence.

Frankly I don't care about toilets. I care very much about the language I need to protect my access to education, work, participate in government etc. because of my sex.

However, I feel you should be aware that according to Stonewall and others, there is no class of trans women. 'Trans' is a state of mind, not a group of people who need specific rights.

@Gerla

Lets take a young transitioner who passes easily, and lets assume you are a fairly average woman Let's not. You always seem to want to take as an example a young tw who passes easily. Most TW do not pass. Even those who do are taller and stronger than women.

the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant
You really have no idea do you?

"Most TW do not pass."

How would you know, given that if you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell.

"Even those who do are taller and stronger than women."

I've met Jazz Jennings - she's tiny.

"You really have no idea do you?"

Great argument.

What are they transitioning from then?

Trans women aren't males, and the evidence suggests they do not offend at rates typical of males.

This should be obvious, but that only makes sense if you can explain who is and isn't included in the group 'trans women'.

that only makes sense if

Given that Shiz can't actually define "male", the chance of getting him to define "trans women" is minimal.

How would you know, given that if you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell.
Most TW transition after male puberty so they are not tiny. They are the size of average males. Yes, we can tell, almost always. It seems to me you don't have a lot of real life experience. I have met a lot of TW throughout my career. Most of them described themselves as transsexual and male - and they were all bigger and stronger than me.

Rights need to be balanced. Trans gender people as a class are not a threat to non-transgender people as a class, so you can't ban an entire class of people without a very good reason.

More tired old trope.

As people have pointed out, it is MALES that are causing the impacts on the rights for women and girls. ONLY males. FEMALES (regardless of if they want the rights) should always have the protections that are in place. This issue is the conflict of rights with people prioritising their gender identity over the sex based needs of females (due to a millennia of sexist discrimination because of our female sexed bodies).

If a transman or a NB female don't feel they want access to those rights, that is their choice and they may well change their mind in the future, and have probably benefited from them in the past with out ever thinking about them or who fought for them. But they are there.

And enough with the emotive language use. Banning? Really? Like ANY males should ever have had access to these rights in the first place?

[** a reminder that female refers to the body type that has developed around the function of producing large gametes, whether this production has ever happened, is happening, or will happen in the future. A disclaimer that seems to be needed in 2021.]

"Trans women as a class are not a threat to cis women. By all means point to the evidence from a non-GC feminist source that trans women are as violent as cis men. Cherry-picking examples of individuals is not evidence."

Re evidence..., burden of proof again. Currently toilets are single sex unless you have a GRC, (whether Stonewall thinks they are or not) if you want to change that, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that trans women are not a risk.

Having said that, any source that says something you dislike is GC but are MOJ statistics on incarcerated transwomen convicted of violent and sexual offences GC?

Again, though that is assuming that any of them are bonefide transwomen, every single one of them could in fact be just men that say they are trans, that straight predatory men will not pretend to be trans in order to access their erotic target is just naive and if spaces are gender neutral, they don't even have to pretend,

There is also a FOI by the Times that looks at stats on attacks in gender neutral facilities too.

The thing about loos is that I have indeed been sharing facilities with transwomen for decades, by implied consent, without issue. If at any point I had felt uncomfortable or under threat, then I would have had legal protection and societal consent to explicitly withdraw consent, complain, report, cause a fuss. Women can identify a male with great accuracy, they are also pretty good at spotting predators. Most Trans women have a gentleness, a softness, everyone can spot it. No one is arsed, we can all pretend.

If you make it a social expectation and a legal right that anyone can identify into a single sex space, regardless of attitude, and double down on it by making it impossible for women to object, then every entitled aggressive idiot gets to don a bodycon skirt and a glitter beard and walk in unchallenged, and those societal norms are gone.

They form a soft barrier but they are effective.

the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant
Coming back to this for a second, why on earth do you think I have more in common with an adolescent male who has not grown up as a female? This is grossly offensive.

The subset of Transwomen who wish to impose themselves into female sex spaces are a direct threat to the mental health of women and to the free participation of women in society

Further having this subset of transwomen in female spaces means that female spaces no longer exist. Any man can use them. We know this then increases assault rates and makes it harder to prosecute such cases,

Further when this happens the spaces that that subset of transwomen wanted access to no longer exist. They have destroyed what they wanted

Trans women aren't males, and the evidence suggests they do not offend at rates typical of males

More misinformation.

Transwomen are NOT female. So if they are not male, what sex are they?

female refers to the body type that has developed around the function of producing large gametes, whether this production has ever happened, is happening, or will happen in the future.

I am sorry to keep stating this, but transwomen have or did have the body type that has developed around the function of producing small gametes,whether this production has ever happened, is happening, or will happen in the future..

And can you then tell us why there are a preportionately more transwomen in prison for sex offences than there are females in prison for sex offences?

Let's not keep seeing studies. Let's look at the statistics in the UK prison system. These statistics have been brought to your attention on a few threads now.

If you make it a social expectation and a legal right that anyone can identify into a single sex space, regardless of attitude, and double down on it by making it impossible for women to object, then every entitled aggressive idiot gets to don a bodycon skirt and a glitter beard and walk in unchallenged, and those societal norms are gone.

We already know what happens, and nobody has to wear a skirt. The ethos of Stonewall et al is that everyone should be able to use any facility according to their level of comfort. By default all spaces become unisex.

Instead of having an open conversation about why some women need single sex spaces and how it would be possible to create more unisex spaces, women are simply denied the language they need to talk about sex.

Dadjoke, I know you don't know what you are talking about because you talk about 'cis' women as though it would be possible to control the consequences of sex by simply not being 'cis'.

the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant

Not at all. Although it seems that many transwomen would like this to be case. That is because they don't have either biological issues, nor the experiences arising from having these issues. From birth, not from puberty even. From birth.

Are you then saying that a non-passing transwoman's life is not really like a females then?