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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

OP posts:
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midgedude · 15/03/2021 19:16

Sex... how babies are made

Person who can grow a baby can't be turned into a sperm provider

Hth

Zandathepanda · 15/03/2021 19:16

At least one child gets raped in a school every school day. This is overwhelmingly likely to be female. We owe to these children to feel as safe as possible at school. We owe it to all girls and women to have single sexed toilets and changing rooms.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41836303

We also owe it to the 97% of young women who have had some form of sexual harassment.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

TheChild · 15/03/2021 19:17

So just because it's mainly girls that like to play with Barbies, every little boy that likes to play with Barbies is in actual fact a girl?

What utter, regressive rubbish.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 15/03/2021 19:19

You mean they had gender stereotypes imposed on them rather than just being allowed to play with whatever they liked - you know, like the tomboy trans girls.

They were brought up thinking that certain things are for boys and certain things are for girls. They were brought up thinking that there is something 'wrong' with a boy wanting to play with dolls.

It's not then a huge stretch for you to then think that if you yourself like things that are 'meant for' the opposite sex, then you might actually be the opposite sex. That there is something wrong with you that needs correcting with hormones, surgery and the like.

I don't know enough about the two in question's upbringing and life to know how they came to feel the way they do, but as a previous poster said, in order to 'identify with the opposite gender' you have to have ideas about what each 'gender' is in the first place.

Wheresmyfuckingphone · 15/03/2021 19:21

Isn't it lovely - a trans girl just being one of the girls and everyone getting along fine.

Ridiculous. Those children would accept that child regardless of their presentation. There is no need to trans children.

334bu · 15/03/2021 19:22

Oestrogen and testosterone liberties? God the following is really worrying.!

**Oestrogens and testosterone induce masculine or feminine physical characteristics, and should only be taken in the context of medical supervision to monitor risks (e.g., polycythaemia in transgender males, venous thromboembolism in transgender females).

For transgender females, oestrogen therapy alone is often insufficient to produce the desired feminising effects. Other treatments are therefore used in an off label manner. For example spironolactone, an aldosterone antagonist with weak oestrogenic properties is commonly used to support oestrogen therapy – off label. Cyproterone acetate has progestational and antiandrogenic properties, but it can lead to hepatic toxicity including jaundice, hepatitis. Hepatic failure has also been reported (fatalities reported, usually after several months, at dosages of 100 mg and above).

Specific effects of gender affirming hormones

Psychological effects

Young transgender people may have mental health problems, including anxiety, and suicidal ideation. De Vries 2014 (n =55) assessed gender dysphoria, body satisfaction, at baseline, puberty suppression, and in adulthood. De Vries 2011 reported on the original cohort (n=70) that showed that emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression. High levels of bias with study participation mean the results should be treated with caution. The study found a decrease in gender dysphoria after surgery. However, it was not possible to disentangle the psychological benefits of hormone treatments from surgical interventions.

Cognitive and brain-related effects

Neuroimaging studies suggest CSHs affect brain structure and circuitries, ventricular volume and thickness, hypothalamic neuroplasticity, and functional connectivity. One study, Burke (2016) (n=62) investigated GAHs and brain function in adolescents, and reported that testosterone therapy in transgender males (n=21 mean age 16.1) was associated with altered cognitive processes, as assessed by the mental rotation task (MRT), a measure of visuospatial working memory that elicits cognitive sex differences. The study concluded that transgender males have atypical sexual differentiation of brain areas involved in visuospatial cognitive functioning.

Bone development

Klink 2015 found that lumbar spine bone mineral density scores fell during puberty suppression with GnRHa for transgender adolescent females but did not increase following oestrogen treatment. Endocrine Society Guidelines state monitoring BMD parameters in transgender adolescents is recommended both prior to and during gender-affirming hormonal treatment.

Haematological variables

Testosterone therapies stimulate erythropoiesis, and increases in haemoglobin and haematocrit are an anticipated physiological response. Jarin 2017 (n =116) reported that testosterone therapy in transgender males was associated with significant elevations in mean haemoglobin and haematocrit. Tack 2016 reported haemoglobin and haematocrit concentration variables increased but stabilised at six months. In transgender adolescent females estradiol. Olson-Kennedy 2018 report a significant decline in Hb concentrations after a 2-year course of estradiol.

Cardiovascular Health

Tack 2016; Jarin 2017 report no changes in LDL or triglycerides in the short term for transgender adolescent males. Olson-Kennedy 2018 report significant increases in triglyceride concentrations and HDL after two years of oestrogen treatment. None of the studies showed significant changes in mean total cholesterol concentrations. Olson-Kennedy 2018 report elevations in systolic and diastolic blood pressure with testosterone treatment after two years. Jarin 2017 reports no change in BP at six months. Jarin 2017, Olson-Kennedy 2018 and Tack 2016 report no changes in HbA, glucose, or insulin.

Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, and loss of considerable numbers of patients in the follow-up period. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also, adherence to the interventions is either not reported or inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding.

An Archive of Diseases in Childhood letter referred to GnRHa treatment as a momentous step in the dark. It set out three main concerns: 1) young people are left in a state of ‘developmental limbo’ without secondary sexual characteristics that might consolidate gender identity; 2) use is likely to threaten the maturation of the adolescent mind, and 3) puberty blockers are being used in the context of profound scientific ignorance.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research, and treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms and even death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children.**

334bu · 15/03/2021 19:22

Liberties??? Puberty

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 19:24

I have no need to be educated - or rather 're-educated' - by a trans activist. Heard it all before, still totally disagree.

TheChild · 15/03/2021 19:26

And that sex... Is male!

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 15/03/2021 19:26

Have you any idea how desperately self conscious about their bodies trans girls are?

Have you any idea how desperately self conscious about their bodies girls are? But they're the ones who should put up and shut up, right?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/03/2021 19:27

Thanks for that 334bu. Anecdotally, I have read of older transwomen having fairly substantial health issues from the long term use of cross-sex hormones. One can only imagine what the impact might be on children who have transitioned. I guess we'll have to wait until they reach middle age and beyond to see how this cohort is impacted.

WeRoarSometimes · 15/03/2021 19:30

You can call it what you like and dress it up however you choose.
This is a board where women are thinking about the rights that we have, the rights that are under attack despite being enshrined in law.

If you wanted a modicum of balanced discussion, might you not have included how the girls felt? Is that relevant?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 15/03/2021 19:30

@SJaneS49

“telling a child that they can ‘change sex’ is wrong”

No it isn’t.

“Telling children that another child has ‘changed sex’ is wrong“.

Again no.

This section is absolutely vile. The transphobic nature of so many of the posts is appalling. Given how accepting of difference the younger generation of women tend to be, this focus & hate directed at trans women to the point of mania is not going to attract young women to feminism. Which will be all our loss.

Good luck OP, you’re on a lost cause with this lot!

Disagreement is not hate. Labelling arguments you don't agree with as transphobia achieves nothing. I can't speak for everyone here, but I am not motivated by hate or fear of people who have gender issues. When it comes to children, I feel they are too young to be able to understand what it means to transition, especially if they are going to be put on puberty blockers and then cross-hormones.

Social transition may seem harmless by comparison, but realistically if a very young child is told they can now call themselves a girl when they are in fact male, or vice versa, they're on track to a medical transition when puberty arrives, or else the whole house of cards falls.

It isn't kind to children to tell them that they can change from one sex to another, because they can't. The chromosomes can never be changed. If an individual takes drugs to suppress their natural hormones and introduce high levels of hormones that would normally be found in the opposite sex, some superficial changes will happen to the body, but as soon as the hormone treatment stops the body reverts to what it's genetically programmed to do, i.e. produce the hormones appropriate to that sex.

Surgery can also make superficial changes to the body's appearance, but there is no possibility of giving a natal male a female reproductive system, or vice versa.

We have two sexes, female and male, because that's how mammals reproduce. We make life very complicated for ourselves with all sorts of social constraints trying to dictate how each sex should behave, but stripping all of that away, sex is about reproduction. It doesn't matter that we can't all reproduce and that many people choose not to reproduce. The only reason we have two sexes is reproduction.

We would do very much better to tell children that they can play with anything they like, develop any interests they like, dress how they like, but the one thing that they will just have to learn to live with is their biological sex, which will be with them for life.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 15/03/2021 19:32

Jesus, that link @334bu Shock

I don't get how anyone can justify this!

Coffeeandcocopops · 15/03/2021 19:32

@FishWithoutABike

Does anyone else think it’s a bit creepy that they film her in a bathing suit while talking about her body?
Exactly. And to put it on the internet is weird.
titchy · 15/03/2021 19:33

There is no way she is getting naked in a shower with other girls. Have you any idea how desperately self conscious about their bodies trans girls are?

Good! Natal girls are also desperately self conscious btw. So as long as neither are sharing showering, changing or sleeping facilities there's really no problem is there.

All should aim to be tolerant of each others' views and lived and social and cultural experiences in the classroom.

And no adults should be 'weaponising' children with any sort of difference simply to make their activist point - safeguarding of ALL children and vulnerable adults must underpin everything.

Don't you agree? I hope so, and I'm not sure why you think MNers need educating to accept anything else tbh.

drspouse · 15/03/2021 19:35

I have questions.
Why can't a boy have a peer group of girls?
How will this transgirl go through a female puberty when the definition of female puberty is menarche?
What's the "biological basis" of transgender identity and how does it differ from a) the "biological basis" of same sex attraction and b) the effect on the brain of the experience of being seen as feminine?
How can a "trans tomboy" be diagnosed as gender dysphoric when the diagnostic criteria in children require liking things associated stereotypically with the other sex?

SJaneS49 · 15/03/2021 19:36

Thanks but no I’m not going to engage in any kind of debate with you. I personally find many of the transphobic comments on here and in this section in general (and it is a mania, just take a look at the sheer number of posts on the subject) completely unacceptable. They most certainly do not reflect my views or concerns in terms of the rights of women and the struggles we have to contend with in 2921. I can only imagine what my political 26 year old LGBT daughter & her friends would make of this section, nothing positive I’m sure. Luckily, they are the future.

Please do not bother addressing any further comments at or to me as they will not be read.

Toseland · 15/03/2021 19:36

This bit is so so sad, “Who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could they do?”
Poor girls. I think this person sees their needs as being above everyone else’s, especially those who are young and female. You can’t hide male entitlement.
In fact I’m beginning to wonder if these people have any care or respect for others at all. They seem so focused on themselves, they are so unbelievably privileged with everyone bowing to their every need at the terrible expense of others.

Coffeeandcocopops · 15/03/2021 19:37

Isn’t it strange that at 50 I had to see my GP at least 4 times to get HRT. I’ve had to beg and cry to get taken seriously that I am menopausal. I’ve had to ignore his comments about cancer. Yet we are happy to allow / encourage young trans children to take a range of hormones to tremendous puberty and then to help them develop some features of the opposite sex.

What happens when a trans girl detransitions at the age of 20? Do they simply come off the hormones and they then go into make puberty and develop an adult penis, body hair and deep voice?

SJaneS49 · 15/03/2021 19:38

2021 not 2921, which says something about writing when cross.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 15/03/2021 19:39

Not rtft but find the post incredibly patronising.
Girls and women are saying no. We are saying no. I'm sick and tired of the endless attempts to override our boundaries.
If you genuinely want to find a way forward for both women and trans people, you need to start respecting women's rights because this is a line in the sand that we are not willing to scuff over.

And as for a video on the subject that isn't stage managed:
mobile.twitter.com/JVanMaren/status/1196528937259732992

TheChild · 15/03/2021 19:40

@SJaneS49

Thanks but no I’m not going to engage in any kind of debate with you. I personally find many of the transphobic comments on here and in this section in general (and it is a mania, just take a look at the sheer number of posts on the subject) completely unacceptable. They most certainly do not reflect my views or concerns in terms of the rights of women and the struggles we have to contend with in 2921. I can only imagine what my political 26 year old LGBT daughter & her friends would make of this section, nothing positive I’m sure. Luckily, they are the future.

Please do not bother addressing any further comments at or to me as they will not be read.

I'm not much older than your daughter @SJaneS49 and I hold the (shocking!) opinion that humans cannot change sex and that women deserve single sex spaces. I am the future, too, and I will never stop fighting for women's rights.
CardinalLolzy · 15/03/2021 19:40

@SJaneS49

Thanks but no I’m not going to engage in any kind of debate with you. I personally find many of the transphobic comments on here and in this section in general (and it is a mania, just take a look at the sheer number of posts on the subject) completely unacceptable. They most certainly do not reflect my views or concerns in terms of the rights of women and the struggles we have to contend with in 2921. I can only imagine what my political 26 year old LGBT daughter & her friends would make of this section, nothing positive I’m sure. Luckily, they are the future.

Please do not bother addressing any further comments at or to me as they will not be read.

I'll assume you are unable to explain what you mean when you use the word "sex", then, and gently suggest you educate yourself.