What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

trans kids go through puberty too - that's what happens when they stop the blockers.

So when this male child stopped taking puberty blockers, was there pubic/body hair, gentital growth, bone density and white matter increases?
Because that's puberty.

As you know, a testosterone puberty will cause permanent changes to a trans girl's body that she is likely to regret for the rest of her life, that may well leave her with permanent gender dysphoria, that will in many cases leave her visibly trans which means she will be singled out for discrimination and abuse for the rest of her life.

And somehow you think she is old enough to choose that, but too young to choose the alternative.

And as usual, this discussion remains focused on MALES. Why does this OP, across multiple threads now, never discuss FEMALES and the magnitude of the negative effects of transition on the female body?

That's why we have puberty blockers - they are literally a way of avoiding rushing.

And that is why we have had a high court proceeding that disclosed that this is not actually happening and the practice needs to be changed. Because, for whatever reason, and there will be quite a few aspects of this, the young people in the UK are NOT treating it as a pause. Nearly all of them progress.

And another reminder that the Doctors behind the Dutch Protocol have started to raise the alarm about this. Another thing that is conveniently hand waved away.

@Shizuku

You really should read the papers these journalist base their articles on
It's nothing like as cut and dried as you make it
Also there's been a hell of a lot of research done since that piece was written,
I've got at least half a days worth of papers to read through now

But, to quote from one of the papers used for the Scientifc American piece
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4037295/
Hypothalamic Response to the Chemo-Signal Androstadienone in Gender Dysphoric Children and Adolescents

It should be noted, though, that sexual orientation of the participants with GD might present a confounding factor. Berglund et al showed that hypothalamic responsiveness to androstadienone in lesbian women was comparable to that of heterosexual men. In the literature, the majority of natal females with GD are reported to be gynephilic which was true as well for our group of adolescent gender dysphoric girls. Therefore, it cannot be ruled out that the resemblance in hypothalamic activation with the control boys might be due to their shared sexual orientation rather than their shared gender identity.

Which fits entirely with the supposition that the forced performative femininity that the modern world forces on young girls, with one of the only opt outs being transitioning, may have some basis in evidence based research

"Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable."

Nor can physical pain. Of course there are some people who don't experience physical pain, and they might claim that it's a delusion and it doesn't really exist, but all the rest of us who have experienced physical pain know that it does.

It can be objectively measured and imaged via brain scans, which have shown against all expectation that pain reception in the brain is surprisingly universal when it comes to physical pain.

"So, Shizuku, here is how I understand that definition explained."

And yet, millions upon millions of people and thousands upon thousands of doctors and scientists do not share your confusion.

An ad hominem is neither deserved by me nor worthy of you. If the points I make are wrong, then explain why. It's irrelevant how many people agree with your definition, the only thing that matters is whether my points are right or wrong. Engaging on this level of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement strongly suggests you have no counter arguments.

"It is innate and merely emerges like a butterfly from a chrysalis during childhood and adolescence and it is fomed in response to external stimulus."

We know there is a biological component, we assume that external factors might have some bearing on the way that biological factor is perceived by the individual or in the way it is expressed (non binary is a thing for example) but we also know that it's not something that can be forcibly changed.

As I have explained above, we do not know that there is a biological component for a universal gender identity. Having read all of the papers referenced in your links and many more besides, the only thing that researchers to date know is this:

There may be a biological component involved in developing gender dysphoria. This component has not yet been found nor is there agreement whether this is genetic, epigenetic, hormonal or neurological in nature.

I highly recommend reading the papers you link us to and paying particular attention to the caveats and limitations explained by the researchers who do not hide their uncertainty.

There is also a lot of evidence that trauma of various kinds play a strong role in the development of gender dysphoria. This is a developmental influence that is heavily researched. There is no suggestion that adverse childhood experiences merely help an innate (trans)gender identity emerge but that it develops in response to these negative developmental influences instead.

I mean do you think someone could force you to believe you have a male gender identity? And have they tried for years to force the gender identity of trans people to change with no success whatsoever? The answer to both is yes.

As I still don't know what you mean by gender identity, I cannot answer that. My analysis has laid out very clearly that to me that definition is meaningless because it is ideological and unscientific, internally contradictory and illogical at base.

However, having availed myself of all the various tests online, I not only measure as trans on the basis of my strong preference for masculine-coded stereotypes, I also met the diagnostic criteria for both gender identity disorder and gender dysphoria in my teens. In as much as I'm willing to entertain the notion, if I believed in gender identity, I would already be sold on having a male one.

As to your second point, it depends on who you are talking about. Transsexuals? Yes, therapy for those individuals has merely helped alleviate their distress and not resolve it completely. However, if you are talking about children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the vast majority does indeed respond to therapy in successfully reconciling their mind with the body they inhabit (or in your language, these children who desist from their belief that they are the opposite sex do indeed change their gender identity. As do increasing numbers of detransitioners, who by now number in the tens of thousands.)

"It is a natural feeling like any other but differs from all other natural feelings humans experience in every way possible."

It's like many natural internal experiences. Pain, as I mentioned, is an example - you can't measure it and the only thing you have to go on is the person's claim that they are experiencing it. As you know, if you go to hospital in pain, they don't measure it - they can't - they just ask you to rate your experience of the pain you claim to have on scale of 1 to 10.

As I said above, pain can be objectively measured in brain imaging scans. It can also be elicited in predictable ways and measured in bodily responses. Much more importantly, gender identity is said to be a feeling like any other and yet, it does not change, we cannot be mistaken about it nor lie about it. Pain changes, we can be mistaken about it (there is a lot of research into that) and we can and do certainly lie about pain, too. So this analogy fails on all levels.

You can look for biological factors in both pain and gender identity, but ultimately, only the person in question knows whether or not they are experiencing it. And of course, you could refuse to acknowledge someone's pain or gender identity on the grounds that you don't believe they are experiencing what they say they are experiencing, but you know that the outcome of doing that in both cases can be extremely detrimental.

You say "ultimately only the person in question knows whether or not they are experiencing it". Do you concede then that gender identity is not universal? And that a person like me who says she does not experience this feeling of having a gender identity, does indeed know she does not have a gender identity?

Logically, gender identity cannot be both universal and a matter for each individual to decide whether they have one. So, which is it?

Am I mistaken about not having a gender identity, am I lying or do I really not have one?

I am assuming that I currently live as a woman since I am one.

Well, I'm a man, but I guess I'm living as a woman by posting here on this Mumsnet thread arguing with Shizuku? Nothing more womany than being on Mumsnet, surely?

Doesn't feel terribly different to me, this womaning. I've certainly got various feelings, but they're ones I'm quite familiar with, and I'm detecting no particular psychological issues I wouldn't have arguing with Shizuku as a man on a manly board.

I've even been called "she" a few times on this board, and I felt nothing... If I had a male gender identity shouldn't that have felt bad or something? (Okay, I did feel a bit bad that I might have misled others about my sex with the non-committal random user name, so feeling bad for women on the board, but no discomfort within myself)

Actually, isn't that the proof that we here don't have gender identities?

Shizuku says that people who do not have their gender identity acknowledged suffer.

But you can call me "she" all day, and I'm sure I could call all the fab female blokes here "he" all day. And none of us would feel anything.

So we clearly do not have a gender identity - you can't misgender us.

QED.

The regret rate for people who did transition is between 0.3 and 3.8%.

And here we have OP pushing this statistic again.

I never did get an answer to why the study that a PP posted about 'presentation' following up on a couple of hundred transitioners 10 years later had rates of 8.3% - 8.8% rates of transitioners no longer living as the sex they had surgically transitioned to. It was a European wide study of both male and female transitioners. The rate for non-surgical was something much higher as might be expected.

I have posted the links to the study and my analysis of it 2 or 3 times and OP has never acknowledged it. Just continues to post this study as it stays on message.

So whilst we need to do everything we can to get the regret rate to 0, we are actually doing extremely well at the moment.

And the detransitioners are telling us all that we are NOT doing extremely well at the moment.

But wait, they are mostly female. Maybe that is why their stories are ignored or minimised.

And as usual, this discussion remains focused on MALES. Why does this OP, across multiple threads now, never discuss FEMALES and the magnitude of the negative effects of transition on the female body?

Especially since that biggest increase in referrals has been in girls.
It seems from the little data available that these referrals to the Tavi are disproportionately made for girls with autism, or a history of trauma including abuse, or who have a background of being in the care system, or who are lesbian.

So you were wrong - they were addressed, but not in the way you wanted them to be. I accept you apology.

Perhaps you'd like to repost them. Are they on this thread?

Shizuku, you might think that you are educating people. You are not. You are peddling sexist stereotypes, labels and lies. I read with interest the open letter that you posted yesterday and it made me laugh. At the number of academics so mired in this madness that they need to subscribe to nonsense in order to ensure their next promotion. Its called institutional capture. Are you going to be spiteful now and insist on calling me cis?

But wait, they are mostly female. Maybe that is why their stories are ignored or minimised.
As per bloody usual.

Relax - trans kids go through puberty too - that's what happens when they stop the blockers.

Puberty is the process the body goes through to reach sexual maturity so that reproduction can occur. Cross-sex hormones cannot by definition result in a sexually mature body, because the body of someone taking cross-sex hormones doesn't possess the organs to respond appropriately to those hormones. Cross-sex hormones can result in the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex, but that's not full sexual maturity.

If people call people "cis" when they have requested not to be called so, it can be reported, as in MN TG it's considered often not to be conducive to civil and respectful debate to use this inflammatory term, just as there are terms we women who don't believe in gender identity ideology can't use.

Relax - trans kids go through puberty too - that's what happens when they stop the blockers

This answer verily drips of condescension.

You ignore the effects that are lasting that cannot be 'caught up', particularly with cross sex hormones.

Bone density (particularly in females, which is often ignored of course), brain development, genital development and gamete development (an inconvenient truth from discussion further up thread as this means there is little that can be done for future fertility).

No. There is quite a few long lasting health impacts that don't resolve with cross sex hormones. And three High Court judges found them concerning enough to decide that children cannot make these decisions.

Handwaving them away is not actually addressing them in any way in your answer.

Maybe instead of handwaving, you can provide evidence that they DO resolve in the cases where a child has gone from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones. And that addresses the life long negative side effects. Including the ability to actually have an orgasm. We'd be all up for reading your links on that.

Please post them.

Hint, the Tavistock couldn't and they sort worldwide experts to try to provide some peer reviewed evidence.

What's a trans girl?
Presumably you're talking about a boy who is playing 'let's pretend' and today he's pretending to be a girl?
He still mustn't use the girls toilets.

@CardinalLolzy

Are you saying that women can't be misogynistic?

You can actually tell what someone is saying by reading the words they use and not immediately changing them.

She was talking about transphobia, not misogyny. Think about it.

This is seems to be a posting style.

@CharlieParley thank you thank you
Yet again you write with great insight and dissect the arguments in a calm, measured and kind manner
Each time you take ideas I've tried to scrawl and present them in a clear carefully thought post
Again, thank you

@EdgeOfACoin

Wool, I think they have to restart the puberty process in order to retrieve the eggs.

For a teenager who doesn't want the body of a woman, this is traumatic in itself. The egg retrieval process is even more traumatic.

That's why many of them choose not to go through with it, from what I understand.

I remember in the Tavistock evidence there was a very sad case of a young person born male, who started puberty blockers I think at 11. He'd initially thought he didn't want children (at 10/11 - who does?) then changed his mind so they stopped puberty blockers for a year, but he was never able to get a successful sperm sample to store. And presumably would also continue to have prepubescent genitals so would not be enough "material" for future genital surgery. Same as was done to Jazz Jennings.. Though the whole thing mainly makes me think how on earth can young children make that sort of decision, and whoever thought they could?

I remember in the Tavistock evidence there was a very sad case of a young person born male, who started puberty blockers I think at 11. He'd initially thought he didn't want children (at 10/11 - who does?) then changed his mind so they stopped puberty blockers for a year, but he was never able to get a successful sperm sample to store. And presumably would also continue to have prepubescent genitals so would not be enough "material" for future genital surgery. Same as was done to Jazz Jennings.. Though the whole thing mainly makes me think how on earth can young children make that sort of decision, and whoever thought they could?

StellaAndCrow

This case, amongst others, really should bring to light who is really the people who most benefit from the pressure these young people feel to transition. The stories from mature adult transitioners who have had the chance to have fulfilling sex lives, and may even have children, being used to make these children feel the pressure.

It was so interesting to see the Swedish study that gets posted here often (or the Canadian article that links to it) that showed an immediate reduction in referrals once transition was portrayed with real situations (not like this video), and with every portrayal in media, there had to be a balanced view point.

This is what needs to happen first and foremost everywhere throughout the world where transition rates are rising rapidly. Balance.

Yes, some of the people arguing for easier access to puberty blockers are males who have fathered children then transitioned in their 50s. I think it's wish fulfilment that they'd like to be able to "pass" better.

And still there is no real argument as to what benefit puberty blockers can possibly be for girls. Surely even if you accepted all the gender stuff, if girls went through puberty and then wanted to transition as an adult, they haven't lost anything by going through puberty, but have kept their fertility (and things like bone strength and brain maturation)

StellaAndCrow

Exactly Stella.

I find that I am being vague and less direct in my posts these days in my attempts to fit into the guidelines.

that will in many cases leave her visibly trans which means she will be singled out for discrimination and abuse for the rest of her life
And yet there is no urge to combat real transphobia, no push for acceptance of trans people as trans people. Why should a “visibly trans” person face this? This is where “it’s just like the attitude to gays and lesbians in the past” comes unstuck, isn’t it? Stonewall wasn’t pushing for gay couples to call themselves flat mates, or siblings and it would be horrible if LGB people felt they couldn’t be open about their sexuality. Over time society has changed, why the assumption trans people cannot be accepted? Because if a TW isn’t fully accepted as a woman and a TM isn’t fully accepted as a man then society is deeply and horribly bigoted? Why? Trans people can and should be accepted as who they are , why is this unpalatable? Why flat out state not believing is phobia or bigotry? And why is this mostly directed at women, even ones who have been very vocal allies?

Children that take puberty blockers for precocious puberty are monitored very closely and it is a very short term delay in puberty before the treatment is stopped and the puberty commences.

There are no NICE guidelines for puberty blockers in healthy children without precocious puberty. NICE is conducting a review of the available evidence which should conclude by the end of March so it will be interesting to see what research they have to back the use of puberty blockers for this purpose but at the time of writing NICE has zero information - this is very concerning.

At present there is no way of telling what the effect of stopping puberty for a significant amount of time will have on the brain development of the children. As we have discussed previously, puberty is not just body hair and boobs (or deep voice etc) - it is a significant developmental period where the child's brain matures and makes huge leaps forward in cognitive processes.

We don't know if that development stage can ever be recovered if a child does stop puberty blockers and doesn't go onto cross sex hormones (which the vast majority do). We do know that the growth plates on the bones start to fuse around this time so if this window of growth is missed, it can never be regained. The lack of development of bone density in these children (prevented by pbs) is also a major issue for their long term health.

Children in the US who have taken puberty blockers are considering being part of a class action against one manufacturer because their health has been so significantly compromised by taking these drugs even for a short period.

btw, a point of fact re. your quote below op - a trans person has to live with their biological sex for life. They can take drugs and have surgery to look like the opposite sex but they can't change sex and it is unkind to suggest to anyone that they can - especially if it puts their health at risk (see other thread 'Is my job Transphobic?)

If we take stereotypes out of it - I noted that you seem to have made this point a few times - that conforming to sex stereotypes is not a determinant of being trans, then how does a trans person 'live their life' as the opposite sex?

Apart from accessing single sex spaces (which is not supported in law) and pronouns, once we have stripped out clothing, hair, make up and stereotypical behaviour how does a person 'live as the opposite sex'?

You can force a trans person to live according to the sex they were assigned at birth and measure hormones associated with stress, anxiety and depression.

@CardinalLolzy

Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria.

Shizuku posted this in reply to a question about gender IDENTITY. OP is asserting that gender identity is gender dysphoria. That's the opposite of what most trans people say.

Right, so gender identity only exists where there is a biological thing that causes gender dysphoria. Great education from op there, thanks mate.

That is a definition I can understand and empathise with. The old fashioned definition of transexual infact. Glad we have cleared it up.