What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

find that quite interesting, the idea that anyone feels the need to 'indicate to the world' what sex they are.

I think it's quite telling of the mindset involved. Fascinating really.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The idea that a trans child can be in so much emotional pain that they can't bear to be alive any more is not even considered

It's still suicide ideation, whatever the cause. Do you suggest it isn't treated or addressed in any way? You're really reaching to find "transphobia" in that sentence

I'm suggesting that it is treated in exactly the way that the majority of doctors specialising in the field of gender dysphoria say that it should be treated.

Eresh, I looked up the etymology of tomboy yesterday - originally it just meant 'boisterous' child of either sex, usually males. I think last century was when it started to be applied to females.

OK fair enough. But the OP is using it in the more modern female sense and claiming that masculine acting male children who identify as girls are "tomboys" because of course none of this is about stereotypes oh no no.

That has got to be the most clear representation of the TRA version of Trans Rights.

Absolutey no basis in reality, no science, no internal consistency, no logic

Lots of attempted emotional blackmail - look at all of those overly emotional, supposedly triggering words!

A liberal scattering of feelings in place of reasoning

And stupid questions. Tomboy means a girl, human femal child, who does not conform to gender stereotypes. It has no other meaning! It has held that meaning since at least the 16th century!

tomboy (n.)
1550s, "rude, boisterous boy," from Tom + boy; meaning "wild, romping girl, girl who acts like a spirited boy" is first recorded 1590s. It also could mean "strumpet, bold or immodest woman" (1570s).

Thats almost 600 years of the same meaning, in writing and common usage! Of course I suppose you could posthumously trans them, one and all!

Thinking of which, I might add that to my will - let nobody dare posthumously trans this non gender conforming woman - adult human female - now deceased!

@ArabellaScott

Wow, that's some response, Shizuku. Someone quotes a compassionate and thoughtful idea from a transman on how to help a child with suicidal ideation, and you read that as 'a petulant attempt by an abusive child to manipulate you'? Seriously?

I don't think OP has understood that Scott is transgender. Apparently listening to and quoting a trans man makes Mumsnet transphobic.

I don't understand, @Shizuku. Are you saying that a child who is suicidal shouldn't be taken for urgent psychiatric care? How can it be transphobic for parents and others to want a child's mental health to be tended to, to get them back on an equilibrium?

Many children self-harm, sadly, for a variety of reasons. Some mental health problems can affect a person's ability to think logically about their situation and can cause them to behave irrationally. Don't you think it's important that a child expressing a desire to make a huge life change should be given every available support from qualified professionals to explore what's led them to this point and to give them full information about what would follow if they went ahead?

There are very few other areas where we allow minors to make life-changing decisions in defiance of what their parents might want. Termination of pregnancy, taking the pill and medical treatment for a life-threatening illness are exceptions, because society in general accepts that for a young teenager the alternative is worse. For just about everything else we make children wait till they're through puberty and starting to settle down into adult life with brains which are well on their way to full maturity.

I'm suggesting that it is treated in exactly the way that the majority of doctors specialising in the field of gender dysphoria say that it should be treated.

I think the suicide ideation itself would still need to be addressed, wouldn't it? That is a mental health issue which needs urgent intervention.

@continuallyconflating

Nor can physical pain

Very poor analogy
The reaction to pain and pain causing stimulus can certainly be measured

Brain imaging of pain: state of the art
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5019436/

Neuroimaging chronic pain: what have we learned and where are we going?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5289824/

We know there is a biological component

Do we?
I've asked for proof that isn't about DSD people (i.e not the single meta study cited by the Endocrine Society)
And none has ever been provided
Just empty appeals to authority with no evidence

So again, what evidence is there for gender identity apart from subjective feels?

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

"Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”"

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm suggesting that it is treated in exactly the way that the majority of doctors specialising in the field of gender dysphoria say that it should be treated.

I think the suicide ideation itself would still need to be addressed, wouldn't it? That is a mental health issue which needs urgent intervention.

Indeed, and if the suicidal ideation is caused by gender dysphoria, and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition?

Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable."

Nor can physical pain. Of course there are some people who don't experience physical pain, and they might claim that it's a delusion and it doesn't really exist, but all the rest of us who have experienced physical pain know that it does.

You can't measure the subjective experience of pain, however it is certainly possible to measure the involuntary physiological responses to pain. These relate to activation of the autonomic nervous system by arousing stimuli and are extremely well-documented, including changes in heart rate and blood pressure, changes in respiration, pupillary dilatation, changes in skin conductance, pilo-erection (hairs standing on end).

What involuntary physiological responses to gender identity can we measure that would place this phenomenon on a comparably objective footing to pain?

@ArabellaScott

Eresh, I looked up the etymology of tomboy yesterday - originally it just meant 'boisterous' child of either sex, usually males. I think last century was when it started to be applied to females.

Sorry Arabella, I studied this for a while. It is definitely far older than that! I think American literature may only have picked it up in the last century or so.

Actually the ever treacheorus wiki does exclude part of the definition, has youth, taken from a lesbian article and yet managing to mangle it (wiki not the book)!!

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I don't understand, *@Shizuku*. Are you saying that a child who is suicidal shouldn't be taken for urgent psychiatric care? How can it be transphobic for parents and others to want a child's mental health to be tended to, to get them back on an equilibrium?

Many children self-harm, sadly, for a variety of reasons. Some mental health problems can affect a person's ability to think logically about their situation and can cause them to behave irrationally. Don't you think it's important that a child expressing a desire to make a huge life change should be given every available support from qualified professionals to explore what's led them to this point and to give them full information about what would follow if they went ahead?

There are very few other areas where we allow minors to make life-changing decisions in defiance of what their parents might want. Termination of pregnancy, taking the pill and medical treatment for a life-threatening illness are exceptions, because society in general accepts that for a young teenager the alternative is worse. For just about everything else we make children wait till they're through puberty and starting to settle down into adult life with brains which are well on their way to full maturity.

As you know, a testosterone puberty will cause permanent changes to a trans girl's body that she is likely to regret for the rest of her life, that may well leave her with permanent gender dysphoria, that will in many cases leave her visibly trans which means she will be singled out for discrimination and abuse for the rest of her life.

And somehow you think she is old enough to choose that, but too young to choose the alternative.

Indeed, and if the suicidal ideation is caused by gender dysphoria, and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition?

My point is that you can't just ignore suicidal ideation and hope it goes away. And you can't ignore that gender identity might not be the cause, or the only cause. Transition takes time, doesn't it? responsible people would advocate not rushing into it.

@Awiltu

Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable."

Nor can physical pain. Of course there are some people who don't experience physical pain, and they might claim that it's a delusion and it doesn't really exist, but all the rest of us who have experienced physical pain know that it does.

You can't measure the subjective experience of pain, however it is certainly possible to measure the involuntary physiological responses to pain. These relate to activation of the autonomic nervous system by arousing stimuli and are extremely well-documented, including changes in heart rate and blood pressure, changes in respiration, pupillary dilatation, changes in skin conductance, pilo-erection (hairs standing on end).

What involuntary physiological responses to gender identity can we measure that would place this phenomenon on a comparably objective footing to pain?

You can force a trans person to live according to the sex they were assigned at birth and measure hormones associated with stress, anxiety and depression.

And somehow you think she is old enough to choose that, but too young to choose the alternative. Even that child would be able to see the inherent flaw in that supposed argument!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Indeed, and if the suicidal ideation is caused by gender dysphoria, and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is transition?

My point is that you can't just ignore suicidal ideation and hope it goes away. And you can't ignore that gender identity might not be the cause, or the only cause. Transition takes time, doesn't it? responsible people would advocate not rushing into it.

That's why we have puberty blockers - they are literally a way of avoiding rushing.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

And somehow you think she is old enough to choose that, but too young to choose the alternative. Even that child would be able to see the inherent flaw in that supposed argument!

Why don't you set it out then?

You can force a trans person to live according to the sex they were assigned at birth and measure hormones associated with stress, anxiety and depression. More of that overly emotional, trigger laden gubbins that, when read properly, has no meaning at all!

That is so interesting for trans girls @Shizuku .

What about a trans boy who goes through testosterone puberty (cross sex hormones) and then regrets it?

As you say, it which will cause permanent changes to the body which (if they change their mind) will leave her visibly different to her peers?

And probably infertile?

You can force a trans person to live according to the sex they were assigned at birth

Their actual sex. Their natural puberty.

Why don't you set it out then?

I don't think you can transition a child that is suicidal. As in, I don't think Tavistock allows for that. I may well be wrong.

And as many as 80% of children who aren't medically transitioned grow up to simply be gay. So no, I don't think they can choose.

I don't understand why you're so desperate to permanently alter children's bodies when suicidal. People who are suicidal are extremely vulnerable and in need of full mental health support. I don't think it is transphobic to say this.

"I don't think OP has understood that Scott is transgender. Apparently listening to and quoting a trans man makes Mumsnet transphobic."

A transphobic analysis is transphobic regardless of the person making it.

Puberty blockers, the manifest problems and concerns aside, are not an instant cure for mental health issues associated with suicidal ideation.