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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

OP posts:
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9toenails · 18/03/2021 09:31

CharleyParley, that is such a good analysis.

Of course Shizuku and her ilk will not cannot accept your conclusions. Nor will Shizuku enter into any meaningful discussion with you.

Allowing that gender identity does not exist destroys the foundations of trans ideology. But gender identity is a chimera. To maintain the ideology, then, adherents must somehow avoid too much discussion of the nature of gender identity. If 'no debate' fails, what we see here from Shizuku and her ilk obfuscation, distraction, dogmatic assertion is the obvious next strategic move.

Your analysis, in its clarity and focus, is the perfect antidote to this. Thank you.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 18/03/2021 10:06

Does it ever occur that we could and should have been allies? That women like me totally get the feeling of upset anger alienation at being treated as something you are not. Wanting it to stop. Is that not a similar thing?

And yet women like me are told we're what. Right wing bigots, homophobes, racists, want people to die, are filled with hate etc etc etc.

The very women who have been fighting for freedom from stereotypes for both sexes are somehow the worst of the worst. Actual right wing bigots, men who say and do way worse things that than women are not so bad as left leaning nicey life long feminists.

👏 👏 👏 So well put.

gardenbird48 · 18/03/2021 10:29

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

What a marvellous post, CharlieParley.
Seconded - an absolute corker and a joy to read.
adviceseekingnamechanger · 18/03/2021 10:40

Thank you @CharlieParley for taking the time to write that brilliant post. It articulates the views of so many of us so well.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2021 10:48

Does it ever occur that we could and should have been allies?

But tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz, that would require a complete reframing of the debate and I am not sure, from seeing the logic and lack of critical analysis applied to some of the posts that we see, that that is possible.

There is also a complete lack of being able to analyse just why women who have already been involved in fighting for these rights, would suddenly become 'right wing' or 'evangelical religious' supporters.

I mean ... personally, how does that work? When did my trade union background working for better conditions for everyone move to the right wing? Only someone who has determined that anyone who disagrees with their priorities must be a far right extremist. And usually those people have been fed this misinformation from other activists and have the need to repeat it and 'educate' others.

No. It cannot occur to activists that there was a different way to approach this. Because that would also require thinking that there is a whole lot of grey area (safety, medical risk etc) in this issue that needs to be discussed fully and honestly, but will not be.

Certainly, it seems, not on this thread.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2021 10:50

I would really like the OP to come back and address at least some of the questions they have ignored. I know that they are hard, but maybe we would see some nuance from their thinking.

Otherwise, it is 'all or nothing' as usual.

And that style of posting never moves the discussion forward, and NEVER shows what the posters arrogantly believe it shows, to the readers. It does, however, tell much about the poster.

OhHolyJesus · 18/03/2021 10:56

I think this makes a good point about what happens, what we will do for the children who in 10 years regret taking puberty blockers. That could inc the child in the video in the OP.

We should safeguard those children too, any adult who doesn't see that and promotes the transitioning of children - socially or medically - then I for one wouldn't want them around children and certainly wouldn't want them in a position of power making decisions about their healthcare. I'm so glad Keira's case judgement will protect children in the U.K., unlike the children in the States.

Playing with dolls or trucks didn't used to lead to taking experimental drugs to halt puberty. What changed?

Deliriumoftheendless · 18/03/2021 11:01

Going back to late transitioning FtMs there’s Chaz Bono but I don’t know of any others.

Shizuku · 18/03/2021 11:07

@CharlieParley

We clearly do not understand this definition in the same way, Shizuku, that’s why we keep asking you to explain what you understand this to mean. I’ve read every link you posted, including the last one to Dr Rafferty’s article about the development of gender identity in children. I have also read a number of his other articles on the subject. Assuming good faith on all sides, I’ll go first and tell you how I parse the definition you posted. I'm basing this analysis also on some of Dr Rafferty’s other statements as well as the only source he lists in support, the position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics and its sources.

Your preferred definition:

"Gender identity" refers to an internal sense people have of who they are that comes from an interaction of biological traits, developmental influences, and environmental conditions.”

So, here’s how I understand that definition:

Gender identity is

an internal sense – humans have a number of senses helping us process external stimuli (the best known are sight, sound, touch, smell and taste). These can be externally measured, tested and verified. These senses are a universal human trait, and in those where these do not function as intended, we can measure, test and verify how and why this happens. Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable.

So, I must understand sense here in its second meaning, that of feeling. But unlike other feelings that engage our brain chemistry, elicit muscular reactions or endocrine responses and can thus again be measured and tested, this particular feeling cannot. As it is internal, we cannot ascertain if even just two people experience this feeling in the same way. (Basing law and policy on an unmeasurable, unverifiable internal feeling that may be uniquely different in each of us is a precarious and often dangerous undertaking. As history teaches us.)

people have – this is a claim that all people have this feeling. A universal human trait, one that all members of the species share, even – bizarrely – those of us who categorically state that we do not have this feeling. Could this mean that gender identity is like proprioception? That sense of where our body, our limbs are located within our environment? This is a universal human trait few of us have ever heard of and most don’t know that it exists. But proprioception can be externally measured and verified in a lab, and its function can be ascertained through simple tests. So, this internal feeling is not like proprioception either.

of who they are – this is a feeling that we have about ourselves, but not other people. We cannot ascertain this internal feeling in another person. Not by looking at them, listening to them, touching them or interacting with them. The only way we can know who they feel they are is if they tell us. Logically, this also means no one else can know this about ourselves without us telling them. For others to know who we are then in relation to our gender identity, there is another requirement – faith. It requires faith on the part of the listener that we are neither mistaken nor lying about this feeling.

And yet, to err truly is human and lying is an all too human trait as well. So universally human indeed that it is seen as a sign of cognitive progress in the developing child when they start employing lies in their interaction with others. But we are to treat this unverifiable, solely internal feeling differently from all other feelings we experience. Feelings are something that human beings are frequently mistaken about or lying about, including in self-defence and self-deception. Uniquely though, this one feeling is different. How is neither explored nor explained.

that comes from an interaction – this is a claim that not only does this universal human trait arise from something but is the result of at least two somethings that together create an internal feeling that tells us who we are. Unless both of these somethings are congenital, this suggests that those writing this definition believe nurture plays a role in how our gender identity comes into being.

of biological traits – on first reading this definition, I thought this referred to our sex. There’s a good hundred years’ worth of research into how children come to understand themselves as male or female and how they fit into the binary world of male and female people. Curiously, none of these researchers, not even the greats of child psychology ever spoke of this phenomenon of an internal feeling of being male or female developing independently of the bodies we inhabit. None mention gender identity until John Money published the results of his unethical and cruel experiments on children.

But reading further, I realise that this is not a reference to our sex, but to as yet undiscovered biological causes of this internal feeling that are present in all of us from birth as claimed in the position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Now it is not unheard of in science that scientists postulate the existence of something that they cannot yet prove exists. However, there is in all of these cases an evidence base for that supposition – an externally observable and measurable phenomenon that can only be explained by the existence of this as yet undiscovered something. Unfortunately then, we cannot accept the existence of this hypothetical congenital cause of gender identity on this basis, because gender identity is neither observable nor measurable. And there is nothing in the available literature referenced in the position statement that allows us to say how, when and where these causes will be discovered. Indeed, the referenced researchers themselves are not sure whether these causes exist at all.

Much more problematic however is the fact that these researchers do not propose congenital biological causes for gender identity as a universal human trait at all – they are researching gender dysphoria in children or the psychosexual development of children diagnosed with a difference in sex development, whose genitals were ambiguous at birth and who were subsequently assigned a sex on the basis of their DSD. Just why research into the psychosexual development of an exceedingly rare number of children with a congenital malformation of their chromosomal, gonadal or anatomical sex is applied across the rest of us is not explained in the position statement. Or indeed just how this could apply to all of us. Or why the same is done with the equally tiny percentage of children with gender dysphoria.

developmental influences – this is a claim that gender identity is the result of both nature and nurture. Which therefore positions gender identity not as something that is present from birth, but something that develops afterwards in reaction to developmental influences. Many of us are no doubt aware of the various factors that influence the development of children, but just in case, here is a list of the most important ones:

Our biology:

Genetics or heredity – this is how my oldest ended up looking like the spitting image of his father. This also causes us to have a higher or lower risks to develop certain medical conditions.

Sex – this governs how fast our bodies and brains mature, how we grow, how our bodies work and what bodily functions we must learn to navigate.

Hormones – in addition to the above, hormones also have an influence on behaviour.

Our environment:

Family – how we are treated, loved and supported influences our emotional and cognitive development. How stable the family unit is, trauma, abuse, bereavement all have an impact.

Socio-economic status – we face different challenges and are afforded different opportunities based on this status. This influences what and how well we may learn – both regarding our education and our life experiences.

Location – where we live, the conditions under which we live, limitations placed by climate or topography or opportunities allowed because of them, the state and government we live under.

Nutrition and exercise – malnourished children deprived of sunlight and fresh air thrive far less than their well-fed counterparts who are regularly active outdoors. This has an effect on physiological and psychological development.

That’s not an exhaustive list by any means, nor do I explain how these factors influence child development (my comment is far too long already). However, as the combination of any number of these factors results in vastly different outcomes for children, I cannot comprehend how this is claimed to result in the same universal feeling in seven billion people. Even a hundred genders isn’t enough to reflect how many different outcomes result from sheer endless combinations of these factors.

and environmental conditions – this is redundant. Environmental conditions are of course factors that influence child development and therefore included above. I suspect this was included only because it lends the definition an air of academic rigour (and it meets the rule of three).

This is a definition that contradicts itself and is contradicted by its proponents. Gender identity is both universal and a result of the unique and limitless combinations of factors influencing any given child’s development. It is innate and merely emerges like a butterfly from a chrysalis during childhood and adolescence and it is fomed in response to external stimulus. It is biological but has nothing to do with our biology. It cannot be changed but develops as a consequence of both nature and nurture, the latter of which suggests that even if it was true that an individual's gender identity cannot be changed after it emerges, it could have emerged differently had nurture differed. It is a natural feeling like any other but differs from all other natural feelings humans experience in every way possible.

So, Shizuku, here is how I understand that definition explained. I hope this is detailed enough to allow you to see whatever flaws there are in my thinking. I'm not expecting you to write the same in return, but even just a an attempt at an explanation of that definition in your own words would be welcome. Or a response as to where I am mistaken.

"Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable."

Nor can physical pain. Of course there are some people who don't experience physical pain, and they might claim that it's a delusion and it doesn't really exist, but all the rest of us who have experienced physical pain know that it does.

"So, Shizuku, here is how I understand that definition explained."

And yet, millions upon millions of people and thousands upon thousands of doctors and scientists do not share your confusion.

"It is innate and merely emerges like a butterfly from a chrysalis during childhood and adolescence and it is fomed in response to external stimulus."

We know there is a biological component, we assume that external factors might have some bearing on the way that biological factor is perceived by the individual or in the way it is expressed (non binary is a thing for example) but we also know that it's not something that can be forcibly changed. I mean do you think someone could force you to believe you have a male gender identity? And have they tried for years to force the gender identity of trans people to change with no success whatsoever? The answer to both is yes.

"It is a natural feeling like any other but differs from all other natural feelings humans experience in every way possible."

It's like many natural internal experiences. Pain, as I mentioned, is an example - you can't measure it and the only thing you have to go on is the person's claim that they are experiencing it. As you know, if you go to hospital in pain, they don't measure it - they can't - they just ask you to rate your experience of the pain you claim to have on scale of 1 to 10.

You can look for biological factors in both pain and gender identity, but ultimately, only the person in question knows whether or not they are experiencing it. And of course, you could refuse to acknowledge someone's pain or gender identity on the grounds that you don't believe they are experiencing what they say they are experiencing, but you know that the outcome of doing that in both cases can be extremely detrimental.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 18/03/2021 11:09

@9toenails

CharleyParley, that is such a good analysis.

Of course Shizuku and her ilk will not cannot accept your conclusions. Nor will Shizuku enter into any meaningful discussion with you.

Allowing that gender identity does not exist destroys the foundations of trans ideology. But gender identity is a chimera. To maintain the ideology, then, adherents must somehow avoid too much discussion of the nature of gender identity. If 'no debate' fails, what we see here from Shizuku and her ilk obfuscation, distraction, dogmatic assertion is the obvious next strategic move.

Your analysis, in its clarity and focus, is the perfect antidote to this. Thank you.

Enjoy my engagement, won't you.
OP posts:
Shizuku · 18/03/2021 11:12

@Helleofabore

I think there is a lot we have already deduced about the OP but obviously we cannot say it within the guidelines.

However, we can be certain that those reading along will have already seen the patterns, already made the connections for themselves. I believe that many will have probably gone and read the links and come up questioning, have watched the video and felt many of the same reactions to it as expressed here on this thread.

OP has in the past shown us who they are in their posting style, in their persistence in ignoring the many significant issues (many of them safeguarding issues) we bring up to discuss, none of them are answered. Because to do so would show the weaknesses in the propaganda-ish narrative being pushed which ultimately results in a group of people destabilizing science and language for their own purposes. (And many readers will have seen how this played out in France with consent for those who were still children left unprotected by law and lead to believe they had consented to these activities because they had a child’s understanding and trust).

No, I encourage the OP to continue along the same pattern as frustrating as it is because we genuinely want engagement.

The more readers that pop up, as some have started, and thank the OP for showing them the dissonance and the lack of reliable evidence, may also mean that eventually the OP may have a greater understanding of the true impact of what they are advocating.

"none of them are answered."

None? Not a single one? Are you sure?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:14

Thank you, Charlie, always appreciate your thoughtful input. I agree, this is such a nebulous idea. I suspect it arose from academic theories, rather than from a scientific basis, and has been kind of derived from the idea that 'different sexes behave differently, therefore there must be such a thing as gender identity'. Worked backwards, as it were. When one tries to look at it a priori, find the source or location of 'gender identity', there's just nothing there. A bit like a soul, perhaps.

Maybe it would be more useful to consider gender identity as a response, rather than as an innate quality?

ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:14

Maybe it's the 'innate' that is causing many of the problems, here?

Shizuku · 18/03/2021 11:15

@teawamutu

“If your child tells you they will kill themselves if you do not allow them to medically transition (perhaps following a script he or she is provided on Reddit or Tumblr), take them to the hospital so they can be treated for suicidal ideation. Suicidal ideation and seeking transition are separate issues, so separate them.”

Scott speaks so much sense. This is excellent.

Here we see the classic monstering of trans people even trans children. The idea that a trans child can be in so much emotional pain that they can't bear to be alive any more is not even considered - it can only be a petulant attempt by an abusive child to manipulate you.

And the claim is that there's no transphobia on Mumsnet - fucking hilarious.

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 18/03/2021 11:16

So, Shizuku, here is how I understand that definition explained."

And yet, millions upon millions of people and thousands upon thousands of doctors and scientists do not share your confusion.

You seriously came back to CharlieParley with that? Confused
How enlightening. Still, I suppose we weren't really expecting anything better, tbh. Disappointing, none the less.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2021 11:17

I suspect it arose from academic theories, rather than from a scientific basis, and has been kind of derived from the idea that 'different sexes behave differently, therefore there must be such a thing as gender identity'.

Yes. And "people know their own sex, therefore that can be termed a gender identity, which we can imagine might sometimes be in the wrong body, so everyone has a gender identity, those with a mismatched identity for their sexed body are "trans"."

Shizuku · 18/03/2021 11:17

@gardenbird48

so if a transperson rejects the gender stereotypes of the desired sex then how do they indicate to the world that they are of that sex?

Does it come down to pronouns and using opposite sex spaces?

How does does a tomboy indicate to the world what sex she is?
OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:18

Wow, that's some response, Shizuku. Someone quotes a compassionate and thoughtful idea from a transman on how to help a child with suicidal ideation, and you read that as 'a petulant attempt by an abusive child to manipulate you'? Seriously?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2021 11:19

The idea that a trans child can be in so much emotional pain that they can't bear to be alive any more is not even considered

It's still suicide ideation, whatever the cause. Do you suggest it isn't treated or addressed in any way? You're really reaching to find "transphobia" in that sentence Confused

ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:21

A tomboy doesn't need to indicate to the world, OP. A tomboy is female. (Actualy in earliest usage the term was apparently gender neutral.)

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/03/2021 11:22

How does does a tomboy indicate to the world what sex she is?

Tomboy here. I was told at an early age by the boys next door that I was inferior because I did not have a dick. I wasn't told what my bit was called, but I damn well knew that I was a girl because my front bit had a slit and wasn't a dick. I didn't agree that them having dicks made them better but I knew I was a girl because my body was different.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2021 11:23

A tomboy is a regressive, old fashioned term for a female child who behaves in a way that people considered stereotypically "masculine".

It only applies to a female child. Not a male child because a male child if behaving in a stereotypically masculine way would be considered gender conforming and so not a "tomboy" unless you believe in an implausible metaphysical framework of stereotypes and gendered souls such as gender identity ideology.

ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:23

I find that quite interesting, the idea that anyone feels the need to 'indicate to the world' what sex they are. Most of us just don't actually think like this, OP. A woman doesn't get dressed thinking 'how do I signal my femaleness'. We just look for what we like, what is clean, what is comfortable, etc.

continuallyconflating · 18/03/2021 11:23

Nor can physical pain

Very poor analogy
The reaction to pain and pain causing stimulus can certainly be measured

Brain imaging of pain: state of the art
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5019436/

Neuroimaging chronic pain: what have we learned and where are we going?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5289824/

We know there is a biological component

Do we?
I've asked for proof that isn't about DSD people (i.e not the single meta study cited by the Endocrine Society)
And none has ever been provided
Just empty appeals to authority with no evidence

So again, what evidence is there for gender identity apart from subjective feels?

ArabellaScott · 18/03/2021 11:24

Eresh, I looked up the etymology of tomboy yesterday - originally it just meant 'boisterous' child of either sex, usually males. I think last century was when it started to be applied to females.