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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

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CardinalLolzy · 17/03/2021 22:32

@Hibari

This was pretty neat.

FWIW: I worked with a trans woman who is butch. She started out doing the femme thing but decided that it didn't fit her and she was only doing it due to pressure to be more performatively femme.

I agree that 'being performatively feminine' is generally assumed to be a big part of being a trans woman. I've always found this odd, and a trans woman I know much prefers less feminine clothes etc but isn't sure how they'd be 'read' when they present differently. I think there's nothing wrong with trying different looks and the idea that there has to be some requirement to be feminine is nonsensical.

If gender is an inner sense then how you look or present shouldn't (necessarily) really have anything to do with it. We cannot know or assume anyone's gender identity, or whether they have one, by how they present.

FamilyOfAliens · 17/03/2021 22:37

@MrsSchrute

After a previous posted mentioned Scott Newgent I looked him up.

This is such an interesting article by him:

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/

In it he says 'Transgenderism isn’t a vague feeling, or a distaste for stereotypical roles. It’s a serious internal condition that causes you to want to become the opposite sex. Medical transition, such as the kind I went through, can enhance an illusion that helps some gender dysphoric individuals navigate the world with more comfort. It did for me, and it was the right path for me to choose.

I wasn’t “born in the wrong body.” I was born female. But I didn’t like it. So I changed my appearance, at significant monetary, psychological, and physical cost, with plastic surgery and hormones. My sex never changed, though. Only my appearance changed.

So refreshing!

What a great article!

This especially:

“If your child tells you they will kill themselves if you do not allow them to medically transition (perhaps following a script he or she is provided on Reddit or Tumblr), take them to the hospital so they can be treated for suicidal ideation. Suicidal ideation and seeking transition are separate issues, so separate them.”

NiceGerbil · 17/03/2021 22:48

'She started out doing the femme thing but decided that it didn't fit her and she was only doing it due to pressure to be more performatively femme.'

Things like this said so casually really betray a lack of interest in or engagement with how things are for women and girls.

The gender codes on dress, behaviour etc vary around the world from extremely oppressive at one end, to just gentle but constant pressure at the other.

The majority of girls in the UK are pushed towards feminine hard. From a really young age. Receive approval for pretty. Lovely hair. Beautiful dress. Don't get it muddy! Etc etc etc. It's utterly pervasive.

This follows on through life. Do you ignore the beauty standard and get all the often well intentioned comments? Do you ditch them and get treated with suspicion (lesbian? Feminist?!!?).

Etc etc.

Many women feel that they perform femininity. That it's a costume. Maybe a fun one. Compliments are nice. Also, demonstrating capitulation to the standards gets the approval of men.

It is so so nuanced and complicated. The easiest thing to do is go along with it to some extent.

Rarely is it. Oh I've tried femme nah I'll go butch...

Hibari · 17/03/2021 23:12

@NiceGerbil It's been a while so I could be misrepresenting her a little, we worked in the same department for like 3 years and she was already full-time when I got there. I remember her making a big deal of "finally" getting hormones a couple of months in.

From what I remember though: She felt pressure to be more feminine to get treatment (she said something along the lines of her "doctor at the time didn't think women could wear jeans") and to be "seen as a woman" or not be clocked as trans/harassed.
As she got deeper into her transition more comfortable in her own skin (during my second year there), she gradually stopped giving a fuck about how "women are supposed to be according to male doctors," and gradually shifted to being butch before she moved to another company.

teawamutu · 17/03/2021 23:22

“If your child tells you they will kill themselves if you do not allow them to medically transition (perhaps following a script he or she is provided on Reddit or Tumblr), take them to the hospital so they can be treated for suicidal ideation. Suicidal ideation and seeking transition are separate issues, so separate them.”

Scott speaks so much sense. This is excellent.

gardenbird48 · 17/03/2021 23:33

so if a transperson rejects the gender stereotypes of the desired sex then how do they indicate to the world that they are of that sex?

Does it come down to pronouns and using opposite sex spaces?

toolatetofixate · 17/03/2021 23:36

@gardenbird48

so if a transperson rejects the gender stereotypes of the desired sex then how do they indicate to the world that they are of that sex?

Does it come down to pronouns and using opposite sex spaces?

It comes down to them demanding whatever the fuck they feel like on any given Tuesday and elbowing their way into women's spaces.

NiceGerbil · 17/03/2021 23:36

Hibari no one should have pressure to adhere to certain modes of dress and behaviour.

The fact that performing femininity is pushed to prove trans-ness is terrible. It's enforcing men are like this and women are like that which most feminists have been fighting forever.

The fact though is they had a clean slate as it were, new things to try, see what fits etc. Which sounds fun. And very different to how women are often socialised from when they are tiny girls.

And this is beside the point.

I have no issue with anyone wearing whatever. It's all fine.

I do have an issue with the idea that the words for the cunty half of the humans on the planet must now include males, all of them, that in all circs they must be considered exactly the same. The constant stuff telling women to shut up about our words, we must share them, so there is no way of describing as a group the half of the world that has been oppressed for as long as we know by the other half.

That is a massive problem and the refusal to have both sex and gender recognised, only gender, is a massive affront to every woman and girl in the world.

CharlieParley · 17/03/2021 23:45

We clearly do not understand this definition in the same way, Shizuku, that’s why we keep asking you to explain what you understand this to mean. I’ve read every link you posted, including the last one to Dr Rafferty’s article about the development of gender identity in children. I have also read a number of his other articles on the subject. Assuming good faith on all sides, I’ll go first and tell you how I parse the definition you posted. I'm basing this analysis also on some of Dr Rafferty’s other statements as well as the only source he lists in support, the position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics and its sources.

Your preferred definition:

"Gender identity" refers to an internal sense people have of who they are that comes from an interaction of biological traits, developmental influences, and environmental conditions.”

So, here’s how I understand that definition:

Gender identity is

an internal sense – humans have a number of senses helping us process external stimuli (the best known are sight, sound, touch, smell and taste). These can be externally measured, tested and verified. These senses are a universal human trait, and in those where these do not function as intended, we can measure, test and verify how and why this happens. Gender identity cannot be externally measured, tested or verified. It is unquantifiable.

So, I must understand sense here in its second meaning, that of feeling. But unlike other feelings that engage our brain chemistry, elicit muscular reactions or endocrine responses and can thus again be measured and tested, this particular feeling cannot. As it is internal, we cannot ascertain if even just two people experience this feeling in the same way. (Basing law and policy on an unmeasurable, unverifiable internal feeling that may be uniquely different in each of us is a precarious and often dangerous undertaking. As history teaches us.)

people have – this is a claim that all people have this feeling. A universal human trait, one that all members of the species share, even – bizarrely – those of us who categorically state that we do not have this feeling. Could this mean that gender identity is like proprioception? That sense of where our body, our limbs are located within our environment? This is a universal human trait few of us have ever heard of and most don’t know that it exists. But proprioception can be externally measured and verified in a lab, and its function can be ascertained through simple tests. So, this internal feeling is not like proprioception either.

of who they are – this is a feeling that we have about ourselves, but not other people. We cannot ascertain this internal feeling in another person. Not by looking at them, listening to them, touching them or interacting with them. The only way we can know who they feel they are is if they tell us. Logically, this also means no one else can know this about ourselves without us telling them. For others to know who we are then in relation to our gender identity, there is another requirement – faith. It requires faith on the part of the listener that we are neither mistaken nor lying about this feeling.

And yet, to err truly is human and lying is an all too human trait as well. So universally human indeed that it is seen as a sign of cognitive progress in the developing child when they start employing lies in their interaction with others. But we are to treat this unverifiable, solely internal feeling differently from all other feelings we experience. Feelings are something that human beings are frequently mistaken about or lying about, including in self-defence and self-deception. Uniquely though, this one feeling is different. How is neither explored nor explained.

that comes from an interaction – this is a claim that not only does this universal human trait arise from something but is the result of at least two somethings that together create an internal feeling that tells us who we are. Unless both of these somethings are congenital, this suggests that those writing this definition believe nurture plays a role in how our gender identity comes into being.

of biological traits – on first reading this definition, I thought this referred to our sex. There’s a good hundred years’ worth of research into how children come to understand themselves as male or female and how they fit into the binary world of male and female people. Curiously, none of these researchers, not even the greats of child psychology ever spoke of this phenomenon of an internal feeling of being male or female developing independently of the bodies we inhabit. None mention gender identity until John Money published the results of his unethical and cruel experiments on children.

But reading further, I realise that this is not a reference to our sex, but to as yet undiscovered biological causes of this internal feeling that are present in all of us from birth as claimed in the position statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Now it is not unheard of in science that scientists postulate the existence of something that they cannot yet prove exists. However, there is in all of these cases an evidence base for that supposition – an externally observable and measurable phenomenon that can only be explained by the existence of this as yet undiscovered something. Unfortunately then, we cannot accept the existence of this hypothetical congenital cause of gender identity on this basis, because gender identity is neither observable nor measurable. And there is nothing in the available literature referenced in the position statement that allows us to say how, when and where these causes will be discovered. Indeed, the referenced researchers themselves are not sure whether these causes exist at all.

Much more problematic however is the fact that these researchers do not propose congenital biological causes for gender identity as a universal human trait at all – they are researching gender dysphoria in children or the psychosexual development of children diagnosed with a difference in sex development, whose genitals were ambiguous at birth and who were subsequently assigned a sex on the basis of their DSD. Just why research into the psychosexual development of an exceedingly rare number of children with a congenital malformation of their chromosomal, gonadal or anatomical sex is applied across the rest of us is not explained in the position statement. Or indeed just how this could apply to all of us. Or why the same is done with the equally tiny percentage of children with gender dysphoria.

developmental influences – this is a claim that gender identity is the result of both nature and nurture. Which therefore positions gender identity not as something that is present from birth, but something that develops afterwards in reaction to developmental influences. Many of us are no doubt aware of the various factors that influence the development of children, but just in case, here is a list of the most important ones:

Our biology:

Genetics or heredity – this is how my oldest ended up looking like the spitting image of his father. This also causes us to have a higher or lower risks to develop certain medical conditions.

Sex – this governs how fast our bodies and brains mature, how we grow, how our bodies work and what bodily functions we must learn to navigate.

Hormones – in addition to the above, hormones also have an influence on behaviour.

Our environment:

Family – how we are treated, loved and supported influences our emotional and cognitive development. How stable the family unit is, trauma, abuse, bereavement all have an impact.

Socio-economic status – we face different challenges and are afforded different opportunities based on this status. This influences what and how well we may learn – both regarding our education and our life experiences.

Location – where we live, the conditions under which we live, limitations placed by climate or topography or opportunities allowed because of them, the state and government we live under.

Nutrition and exercise – malnourished children deprived of sunlight and fresh air thrive far less than their well-fed counterparts who are regularly active outdoors. This has an effect on physiological and psychological development.

That’s not an exhaustive list by any means, nor do I explain how these factors influence child development (my comment is far too long already). However, as the combination of any number of these factors results in vastly different outcomes for children, I cannot comprehend how this is claimed to result in the same universal feeling in seven billion people. Even a hundred genders isn’t enough to reflect how many different outcomes result from sheer endless combinations of these factors.

and environmental conditions – this is redundant. Environmental conditions are of course factors that influence child development and therefore included above. I suspect this was included only because it lends the definition an air of academic rigour (and it meets the rule of three).

This is a definition that contradicts itself and is contradicted by its proponents. Gender identity is both universal and a result of the unique and limitless combinations of factors influencing any given child’s development. It is innate and merely emerges like a butterfly from a chrysalis during childhood and adolescence and it is fomed in response to external stimulus. It is biological but has nothing to do with our biology. It cannot be changed but develops as a consequence of both nature and nurture, the latter of which suggests that even if it was true that an individual's gender identity cannot be changed after it emerges, it could have emerged differently had nurture differed. It is a natural feeling like any other but differs from all other natural feelings humans experience in every way possible.

So, Shizuku, here is how I understand that definition explained. I hope this is detailed enough to allow you to see whatever flaws there are in my thinking. I'm not expecting you to write the same in return, but even just a an attempt at an explanation of that definition in your own words would be welcome. Or a response as to where I am mistaken.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 17/03/2021 23:55

What a marvellous post, CharlieParley.

NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 00:02

The thing that never seems to occur to trans activists, even though I'm sure it's raised sometimes (I've raised it before anyway!).

Is that. And speaking from my own experience.

I always felt like a person. Not male inside. Not female inside. Not a bit of both inside. I don't think I know what that feeling is to feel like a woman etc except for stuff related to my body, or external things (being treated in a certain way because I'm female).

I felt like a person from very young and as I spoke about upthread (with no response, obviously) I felt irritated, angry, confused... Every time i was reminded I was a girl. Which was LOTS. I never had any body dysphoria but there's reasons for that I think which are not for this thread. At own puberty though most of the girls in my class were troubled sometimes to a pretty extreme extent by their developing bodies.

Anyway.

So I am not sure about internal gender ID because I don't have it. I'm happy to accept that others do.

As a person who was always treated in a way that made me really angry/ confused etc because of the sex I was, I fought against gendered assumptions. They are shit.

Many other feminists have this experience- many women full stop.

Does it ever occur that we could and should have been allies? That women like me totally get the feeling of upset anger alienation at being treated as something you are not. Wanting it to stop. Is that not a similar thing?

And yet women like me are told we're what. Right wing bigots, homophobes, racists, want people to die, are filled with hate etc etc etc.

The very women who have been fighting for freedom from stereotypes for both sexes are somehow the worst of the worst. Actual right wing bigots, men who say and do way worse things that than women are not so bad as left leaning nicey life long feminists.

I find that really hard to understand and have not had an explanation for it.

toolatetofixate · 18/03/2021 00:12

@NiceGerbil

The very women who have been fighting for freedom from stereotypes for both sexes are somehow the worst of the worst.

This is a really good point. TRAs want to dismiss everything women have fought for in terms of sex and gender equality and jump straight to "give us what we want or you're all bigots."

I'd argue that without the decades of women fighting for women's rights, trans people wouldn't have the acceptance they have now. Women paved the way for this kind of acceptance and we're now being called transphobic and bigoted because we want to preserve our spaces and our rights.

Women are not permitted to have boundaries. They must give everything over to whomever demands it.

Waitwhat23 · 18/03/2021 00:25

Nicegerbil, I have often had the same thought. Had the whole conversation about improving trans rights been a reasoned approach where the rights of both groups were balanced and there was a sensible discussion to discuss any possible conflict of rights, I think women would have embraced the fight for trans rights. They would have marched, would have fundraised etc to improve rights for both groups. I started off as an ally but was completely turned off by the deeply unpleasant approach many TRA's took (slurs, rape and death threats, no debate, forcing people out of jobs etc). If you're constantly called slurs for asking questions or voicing concerns or wanting clarification on something, you don't want to stand with the group doing those things. It could have been so different - it's a shame really.

Scepticaltank · 18/03/2021 00:29

When a young girl is displaying behavioural tendencies that obviously fall outside the female stereotypes, and within the male stereotypes, we typically call her a "tomboy". It's a given that not every single thing she ever does in her life will defy female gender stereotypes, but it's also a given that if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category that we recognise as a tomboy.

I'm still fascinated by this paragraph written by the OP.

Especially this bit:

"if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category"

If she DEFIES!

continuallyconflating · 18/03/2021 00:31

The very women who have been fighting for freedom from stereotypes for both sexes are somehow the worst of the worst.

and what makes it worse @NiceGerbil is that the supposed rationales for this othering of woman have no basis in fact as @CharlieParley has shown repeatedly

Scepticaltank · 18/03/2021 00:33

defy
/dɪˈfʌɪ/
Learn to pronounce
verb
3rd person present: defies
1.
openly resist or refuse to obey.
"a woman who defies convention"

We have a poster on the feminist board lecturing us about DEFYING. I have heard it all now.

EdgeOfACoin · 18/03/2021 06:16

Fantastic post, CharlieParley.

I'm really interested to see Shizuku's response.

NecessaryScene1 · 18/03/2021 06:17

I find that really hard to understand and have not had an explanation for it.

Over time I've concluded it's a limited empathy. I look at trans people and I see people. Troubled people, but people. At the extreme end of having identity issues, but identity issues are common, maybe even universal.

It can be very frustrating to believe/know that others see you differently from how you see yourself. I think many women know this extremely well.

Trans people are often so inward focussed they find it hard to recognise that other people also have a deep inner life. Other people are just mirrors - "what do I look like to this person?" - "how does this person react to me?"

And it's become clear through this that in society as a whole women tend to suffer this effect anyway - not being seen as real people. Just being support humans. (Either that or some ineffable mystery with incomprehensible motivations, unlike men).

So women get the double whammy here - the general societal expectation of being support on top of the individual trans person's extreme inability to recognise other people as real.

The trans person (of either sex) lashes out at those who fail to reflect their desires, and society in the case of women will take their side - admonishing the failed support humans.

And the asymmetry here is blindingly obvious - I see dozens of women treating the OP and the subjects of this film as real people. Trying to empathise - treating them as real people. Trying to establish communication with the OP. Trying to think what it must be to be set on a lifetime course of fighting reality as a child before you can really understand what that will entain. Imagining being one of the support girls in that class.

The OP doesn't seem to empathise with anyone. Not even the subject of the film. It's sad.

Tibtom · 18/03/2021 07:41

Autism

Helleofabore · 18/03/2021 08:09

I think there is a lot we have already deduced about the OP but obviously we cannot say it within the guidelines.

However, we can be certain that those reading along will have already seen the patterns, already made the connections for themselves. I believe that many will have probably gone and read the links and come up questioning, have watched the video and felt many of the same reactions to it as expressed here on this thread.

OP has in the past shown us who they are in their posting style, in their persistence in ignoring the many significant issues (many of them safeguarding issues) we bring up to discuss, none of them are answered. Because to do so would show the weaknesses in the propaganda-ish narrative being pushed which ultimately results in a group of people destabilizing science and language for their own purposes. (And many readers will have seen how this played out in France with consent for those who were still children left unprotected by law and lead to believe they had consented to these activities because they had a child’s understanding and trust).

No, I encourage the OP to continue along the same pattern as frustrating as it is because we genuinely want engagement.

The more readers that pop up, as some have started, and thank the OP for showing them the dissonance and the lack of reliable evidence, may also mean that eventually the OP may have a greater understanding of the true impact of what they are advocating.

NotBadConsidering · 18/03/2021 08:11

@EdgeOfACoin

Fantastic post, CharlieParley.

I'm really interested to see Shizuku's response.

I’m not. It will be entirely predictable.
Tibtom · 18/03/2021 08:13

I remember reading an incredibly biased survey carried out by someone who ran a large autistic website (might have been autistic not weird) - abusive towards those who disagreed with identity politics. But one thing they did say was they had never met a transwoman who wasn't autistic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2021 08:15

they find it hard to recognise that other people also have a deep inner life. Other people are just mirrors - "what do I look like to this person?" - "how does this person react to me?"

And it's become clear through this that in society as a whole women tend to suffer this effect anyway - not being seen as real people. Just being support humans. (Either that or some ineffable mystery with incomprehensible motivations, unlike men).

So women get the double whammy here - the general societal expectation of being support on top of the individual trans person's extreme inability to recognise other people as real.

The trans person (of either sex) lashes out at those who fail to reflect their desires, and society in the case of women will take their side - admonishing the failed support humans.

Yes, this dynamic plays out very frequently.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/03/2021 08:35

@NecessaryScene1

I find that really hard to understand and have not had an explanation for it.

Over time I've concluded it's a limited empathy. I look at trans people and I see people. Troubled people, but people. At the extreme end of having identity issues, but identity issues are common, maybe even universal.

It can be very frustrating to believe/know that others see you differently from how you see yourself. I think many women know this extremely well.

Trans people are often so inward focussed they find it hard to recognise that other people also have a deep inner life. Other people are just mirrors - "what do I look like to this person?" - "how does this person react to me?"

And it's become clear through this that in society as a whole women tend to suffer this effect anyway - not being seen as real people. Just being support humans. (Either that or some ineffable mystery with incomprehensible motivations, unlike men).

So women get the double whammy here - the general societal expectation of being support on top of the individual trans person's extreme inability to recognise other people as real.

The trans person (of either sex) lashes out at those who fail to reflect their desires, and society in the case of women will take their side - admonishing the failed support humans.

And the asymmetry here is blindingly obvious - I see dozens of women treating the OP and the subjects of this film as real people. Trying to empathise - treating them as real people. Trying to establish communication with the OP. Trying to think what it must be to be set on a lifetime course of fighting reality as a child before you can really understand what that will entain. Imagining being one of the support girls in that class.

The OP doesn't seem to empathise with anyone. Not even the subject of the film. It's sad.

Great post, NecessaryScene1. Spot on.
EdgeOfACoin · 18/03/2021 08:43

NotBad, Shizuku's stated aim is to educate us.

At the moment, many of us are confused as to the interplay between gender identity and stereotypes. For instance, based on the link provided, I cannot understand how one can be a tomboy transgirl when apparently the only way of determining gender identity is through the examination of behaviour. Yet Shizuku has repeatedly said that gender identity is separate from gendered behaviour.

CharlieParley has done a brilliant job of dissecting her own view of gender identity and has invited the OP to compare and and contrast their own understanding of gender identity.

Since Shizuku aims to educate, it would seem reasonable to expect Shizuku to take this opportunity to provide further clarification on what gender identity is (since the link provided is confusing) and to engage with CharlieParley's considered and nuanced discussion points. Someone who has thought deeply about these issues and is knowledgeable enough to educate us should not find this difficult.