What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

"OP, if I am drawing the wrong conclusions here, please set me straight."

The answer will be "tomboy". The ghastly word applied to girls 50 years ago that came out of centuries of severe social restrictions for girls is apparently the key to it all.

@mintessa

Thanks for the good wishes, everyone. I may well ask for that post to be removed at some stage - it's not really my story to share. I just wanted to explain that many of us are here because we see these things playing out in our own lives, and we're worried. God knows how much we all wanted this to work out for my niece, how much we wanted this decision to be the right one for her. But here we are.

. It is so hard to watch. I’ve seen the first part happen to a friend of the family. I pray that it is the right decision but given the speed of the process (less than a year from initial ‘getting over of internalised transphobia’ to full hormones and surgery) and the way that life history was reframed to back the narrative I’m not sure.

[quote toolatetofixate]@EdgeOfACoin

It's circular nonsense. OP couldn't set a clock straight on the wall. [/quote]

It is very noticeable the questions that OP doesn’t answer. Deflection and distraction to avoid answering the questions that would point out just how little activists pushing this agenda, actually care about females, particularly children and teenagers.

And how narrow their focus actually is.

Raises questions about just who benefits from such a blinkered view? It is certainly not the current cohort of young transitioners, that is for sure.

@Shizuku "Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like it was written by someone trying to deflect away from the content of the post to the character of the poster?"

Ah sweet karma. Rather frustrating isn't it!

Though unless describing your concrete view of gender as old fashioned and resembling the view of a 1970's village vicar is a character assasination, I'm not sure it counts.

Somehow doesn't have quite the same impact as very personal accusations of hate, transphobia ,bigotry, erasure or "literal" violence and it addresses your reasoning and conclusions not your person.

So I expect you are the only one.

Definitely the only one. The rest of see exactly what you're doing.

Though unless describing your concrete view of gender as old fashioned and resembling the view of a 1970's village vicar is a character assasination, I'm not sure it counts

The 70’s were positively advanced regarding gender compared to now.

I remember my mum discussing with her friends the modern “advice” was to give boys dolls and girls toy cars, and to avoid gendered toys and activities. We all wore red and brown nylon flares and polo necks, and played in mostly mixed groups.

I always find it interesting that in the UK football is a male activity. Yet in the US soccer is very much “for girls”. Boys playing football are weak, gay, girly...

Interested to know how that fits in to trans ideology? Somewhere over the ocean would a boy who loves football somehow become trans, as their peer group is now all female, and they like a female activity....

@Shizuku

For those who have inexplicably missed it the hundreds of times I have said what gender identity is, you may find this helpful, at least as a starter.

If not, do direct your questions to the American Academy of Pediatricians - a professional body of 67,000 pediatricians who produced this page:

www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Or indeed any of the tens of thousands of doctors and scientists who study the phenomenon across the world.

I know I know - it's all a big sinister plot by powerful trans masterminds who have brainwashed all the scientists and doctors in the world, and Mumsnet is the only place that they haven't reached yet...

Thanks, but you haven't said which ones match which sex. You're unable to ascertain who is trans by your own definition about "matching" (which differs from the definition Mermaids state), without doing that.

I'm sure you've inexplicably missed it the last 5 or 6 times you've been asked, though.

They have a female gender identity, but were assigned male at birth.

Very few babies are assigned a sex at birth, around 1 in 2000, and this is always because of a disorder of sexual development. Most have their sex observed.

Without reference to stereotypes, how can gender identity be described? I can believe that I feel like a man, and have believed that in the past, but I can't actually know what it feels like to be a man. I can feel like I should have a male body (that is, a body with a penis and only vestigial breast tissue), and often do, but this doesn't mean that I am a man, it means that I am a woman with a particular kind of body dysmorphia. I understand body dysmorphia, but I don't grasp gender identity at all.

I can believe that I feel like a man, and have believed that in the past
I've always wondered about this; how do you actually know how it feels to be a man, as opposed to not feeling comfortable as a woman?

Thanks , @Shizuku , for answering the question regarding what you think gender identity is ; it is good to get a clear statement from someone who believes twaw , and to read what has helped them form that opinion .
I have watched the video , read the whole thread and followed your links to the Endocrine Society and to Dr Rafferty's explanation of gender ID and gender expression in childhood .
You have been misinformed and misled , though . Dr Rafferty is wrong . No baby has their sex assigned at birth . No baby has their gender assigned at birth . No baby has their gender-identity assigned at birth . No one expects a child or adult to base their sexual preferences on their own genitalia or those of prospective sexual partners . Humans of both sexes have human rights and freedom of expression .
The sex of human babies is determined at conception , observed on scan , at amniocentesis and at birth . How that child expresses their gender identity and sexual preference is irrelevant in the debate about whether twaw or not . Trans women are not women ; they cannot be , because biological sex is immutable . It is because of these sex-specific biological differences that we women require single-sex female (women and girls) provision and we therefore exclude men and boys regardless of how they present or express themselves . This is safe-guarding at its most basic .
I feel for Joppe . He too has been misled . He cannot grow up to be a woman because he is a boy and will grow into an adult human with male chromosomes and male physiological and social conditioning . This maleness will be apparent even after he has died .
However , I feel most sympathy and empathy with Joppes' female classmates ; they have had their boundaries eroded and ''what can they do about it ? Nothing !'' I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that a male-bodied child gazes at the bodies of girls whilst they are showering , even though he says that it is only out of envy of their 'curves' .
Most men understand the biological differences between men and women and are decent enough to afford women their safety , dignity and privacy without it having to be debated or repeatedly explained .
Your posts have been very enlightening though . Thanks .

I read a great book fairly recently which I can fully recommend. it is called Crazy like Us - The Globalisation of the Western Mind

How, largely, U.S manufactured ideas and conditions are exported across the globe, along with a ready made pharmaceutical remedy, plus a whole host of professionals ready and willing to counsel us in them.

For those who have inexplicably missed it the hundreds of times I have said what gender identity is

Or rather what those that subscribe believe it to be.

If being trans was purely about conforming to gender stereotypes, then all trans girls would be notably gender-conforming and would never fall into mostly, but not completely, stereotype-defying category of tomboy

Not necessarily!

Not if the 'nub' of their difficulty with their natal sex lies in some area of the psyche, or in some relational aspect with others, that is other than many of their other natural or inherent characteristics and traits.

I don't have, and have never had a 'gender identity'. To me this is a modern construction that didn't exist as a thing or a concept when I was growing up, nor when I was a teacher in secondary schools just 10 years ago.

As such people young people largely strove to express themselves via the channels that were available to them. A girl could be mathematical and scientifically inclined, and yet also love to dress up and dance around the sitting room; or she could be soft and emotional and very attached to family; good with babies and small children in the family; and yet also love to climb trees or to ride her bicycle at speed around the neighbourhood with the boys.

And vice versa with boys. Boys who are naturally good with small children and liked to nurture their teddy when very small, but who also like the rough and tumble of wrestling with their siblings and friends.

Consistency is not a thing because individuals are all different and consist of an infinite variety and pattern of expression.

'The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.'

Christ almighty. Where does this stuff come from? Nothing that's been said on the thread.

They are children. Brains are not fully developed until 25, they think now. We were all teens. How many teens think about children? It's all nebulous and a long way off.

Loads of posters have pointed out that egg retrieval is a risky, stressful and difficult process. That point has not been addressed.

The other thing I note is that.

I'm a bit uncomfy with this lengthy discussion on one individual. I know mnhq generally don't approve of this. I'm not sure why this thread is standing.

I also find it totally illogical that

The OP mentions class analysis
The OP seemingly wants to use this one example to prove that everything is fine in all circs- the exact opposite of class analysis
Also when women point out situations that worry them eg rapists in women's prisons we're told that it's not on as it's not fair to the trans prisoners who aren't sex offenders etc etc

Yes in this video. Not in every school, for every child or every girl.

Oh look no comment about what the adults are doing for that thing... There's a word for it... Safeguarding? 🙄

Okay, so you've answered, OP, that 'gender identity' is

'an inner sense'

Can you describe this? What is it about this 'inner sense' that makes us feel like we are one sex or the other? How does it feel, for you, to be 'female'?

How does one know that the inner sense of says male is actually male and not female

That was @ OP sorry, quote failed.

I think that if you have this inner sense then you can't understand what it's like to not, and if you don't then you can't understand having it.

And that's ok. Everyone is different.

But then you get the fact that

Gender ID stuff has come from trans people who by definition have this feeling, extrapolated that pretty much everyone does. As far as I know there's never been a wide study with proper explanations, definitions etc to find out if most people actually do. And it would be hard to do it as there's no description as far as I have seen, and most people if simply asked their gender will say their sex.

Certainly for years and years many women on here on various threads in chat etc have said no they don't have this feeling. Why is this ignored? That according to stonewall makes them all trans, so why are their views discarded? Often with the 'they just don't know their own minds' shit that had been pedalled for years.

And then of course there's changing laws and breaking down well established social norms (who goes where in mixed changing etc) based on what. A feeling that no one seems able to explain, which is not visible or measurable, and that seemingly is not nearly as universal as assumed.

This whole thing is based on wants and feelings. Attempts to get to grips with the logic of it etc are just shut down pretty much everywhere except here. Well and presumably some dominantly male websites I expect but I have heard they don't get the same attention as Mumsnet.

Gender ID stuff has come from trans people who by definition have this feeling, extrapolated that pretty much everyone does. As far as I know there's never been a wide study with proper explanations, definitions etc to find out if most people actually do. And it would be hard to do it as there's no description as far as I have seen, and most people if simply asked their gender will say their sex.

and we still haven't worked out where all the older female transitioners are. Have we come across any at all?

I vaguely remember seeing one in their 50's a while ago and I guess Scott Newgent would count (although Scott's transition is not a success story by any means and Scott is an advocate for extreme caution before undergoing medical treatment). By the current proportions in the young group there should be a significant population of the older female transitioners - where are they?

They are a significant missing group and their absence is telling.

This was pretty neat.

FWIW: I worked with a trans woman who is butch. She started out doing the femme thing but decided that it didn't fit her and she was only doing it due to pressure to be more performatively femme.

@Hibari

This was pretty neat.

FWIW: I worked with a trans woman who is butch. She started out doing the femme thing but decided that it didn't fit her and she was only doing it due to pressure to be more performatively femme.

...which is a relatable position for a lot of butch women, no?

After a previous posted mentioned Scott Newgent I looked him up.

This is such an interesting article by him:

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/

In it he says 'Transgenderism isn’t a vague feeling, or a distaste for stereotypical roles. It’s a serious internal condition that causes you to want to become the opposite sex. Medical transition, such as the kind I went through, can enhance an illusion that helps some gender dysphoric individuals navigate the world with more comfort. It did for me, and it was the right path for me to choose.

I wasn’t “born in the wrong body.” I was born female. But I didn’t like it. So I changed my appearance, at significant monetary, psychological, and physical cost, with plastic surgery and hormones. My sex never changed, though. Only my appearance changed.

So refreshing!