What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

@EdgeOfACoin

The argument that the OP seems to be making is that playing with dolls doesn't make a male child a girl. However, a male-bodied child with a 'girl' gender identity will want to play with dolls because that's what girls do (or have been socialised to do).

This is why children with a 'boy' gender identity in the UK will play football, because over here football is seen as a boys' game while in the States it will be children with a 'girl' gender identity who play soccer.

I kind of get the argument, but it seems very chicken-and-egg to me. What comes first, the behaviour or the identity?

And secondly, again, what are the components of one's 'gender identity'?

Also how useful is gender identity as a concept if it requires lifelong medication, potential sterilisation and as studies show doesn't necessarily solve mental anguish?

Come on, Shizuku, it must be obvious that Mintessa is saying that egg preservation is NOT a walk in the park?

@DodoPatrol

Come on, Shizuku, it must be obvious that Mintessa is saying that egg preservation is NOT a walk in the park?

One might almost think Shizuoka wasn’t posting in good faith.

Fuck knows what happened to that spelling. For the love of goddess, mn, put a short-term-edit button on.

Yes I do, because I know several trans boys.

Then you'll know that having to take large doses of female sex hormones would supposedly be quite difficult for a young person dysphoric about their female sex and body.

And that if a child has taken puberty blockers and not gone through normal female development there may not be any viable eggs to extract.

Bold fail, I should have bolded shizuku's comment.

I always find it telling which questions get answered.

It is the same pattern every time. The glib, throwaway comments are picked up and responded to.

The harder questions, not so much.

@GreyhoundG1rl

You've misunderstood again

Deliberately.

My question again, Shizuku:

Please, explain it to me. What are the objective criteria that make up one's gender identity? For instance, if a child comes to you confused over their gender identity, what would you say to them to help them figure it out?

You keep saying that gendered behaviour is different from gender identity. Fine. Gender identity is not stereotypes. So what is it?

It is the same pattern every time. The glib, throwaway comments are picked up and responded to.

The poster wasn't being glib. She was being sarcastic, highlighting that it isn't in any way a walk in the park.

Children should not be offered treatment that renders them infertile.

Single sex exists for privacy, safety and dignity.

Girls and women have the right to body autonomy.

Self ID offers loopholes that predators will take advantage of.

Girls and women have the right to say no.

It's really that simple.
And no amount of linguistic twisting and soft focus propaganda will change that.

Do you know how to tell the difference between a feminine boy who isn't trans and a feminine girl who is trans?

It's easy - the feminine boy has a male gender identity and the feminine girl has a female gender identity.

//::

Curious - how would I know by looking what a female or male gender identity would look like?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It is the same pattern every time. The glib, throwaway comments are picked up and responded to.

The poster wasn't being glib. She was being sarcastic, highlighting that it isn't in any way a walk in the park.

True, I agree. I meant to include 'sarcastic' in there as well.

My point was that many of these posters will respond what they see as the 'easy' comments (usually twisting them in the process, as in this case) but will not engage with the more difficult issues.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

Yes! Your one staged, entirely one-sided video from a decade ago is absolutely robust evidence that there are no safeguarding concerns whatsoever and all trans girls should be allowed into all female spaces. And it definitely doesn't matter if any girls feel uncomfortable or if they have religious needs, because they don't deserve the right to single sex spaces free from male bodies. Only trans needs matter, not Muslim ones, not female ones. I get it. I'm educated now, thanks so much.

Yes! I hereby renounce MN, radfemmery and basic biology.

Thank you, OP. Thank you.

I'm bowled over at how you are dismissing the lifelong medical and relationship consequences of fully transitioning at a very young age.

I sincerely hope you are not involved in safeguarding in any way.

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun.

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.

You really don't get it do you. The swimming pools i grew up going to didnt have male and female changing rooms. They had (and still have) changing villages. They have individual cubicles, and family changing room. Shared showers which were open and therefore always visible to someone. I had no problems whatsoever changing and showering in these places. I was never naked at any point in the shower (much like in the video) and had a cubicle to myself to change in.
I had male friends I would happily be alone with. Heck I even shared a bed with some of them. The girls in the video are Joppe's friends in the same way. But girls who don't know Joppe probably won't react the same way.

When I was at home. I was sexually abused and raped. Repeatedly. I ended up pregnant. Twice. I had 2 abortions. I was told it was my fault. I was told I was a slag, a whore.

But yes, if you'd seen me at the local pool you'd have seen me showering happily with other teens/children/men.

Thanks again to those who listen and believe me. Mumsnet has always been the only place where everyone has said they believe me (only a small handful of people IRL know). I've run out of virtual vases for the flowers

@EdgeOfACoin

My question again, Shizuku:

Please, explain it to me. What are the objective criteria that make up one's gender identity? For instance, if a child comes to you confused over their gender identity, what would you say to them to help them figure it out?

You keep saying that gendered behaviour is different from gender identity. Fine. Gender identity is not stereotypes. So what is it?

If gendered behaviour is different from gender identity then what the fuck does someone have to go on that informs them they are actually female instead of male (or vice versa)?

Because on this thread (or perhaps it was another- @Shizuku is prolifically posting on various threads these days) @Shizuku claimed that a boy playing with Barbie dolls could be a sign of being trans.

So what do we go on? Because when I was growing up I cut my hair short, wore boys clothes and insisted people call me "John Boy" (my family watched The Waltons on Sundays and this name struck me as the epitome of "boyness" which I desired).

What the fuck would have happened to me had I been born in the current climate of this nonsense? Or had my parents pandered to me rather than just letting me get on with it.

Thank fuck I'm not now going through a painful de-transition process. Instead I'm happily married and expecting my first child.

Some days I honestly feel like I dodged a bullet when I read what's happening to society today.

@Shizuku

When did you begin to identify as a woman?
Do you think all women identify as women?

Have all these trans boys that you know been through the egg retrieval process? Do they know that preserving eggs is least preferred option as they are so difficult to unfreeze?

The fact that you are just wafting it off with "because I know trans boys" shows that actually you have no clue. To be blunt (and apologies to anyone who has had to go through this process) it basically screws over the body, so not exactly something done lightly.

Why oh why do people intent on "educating" others refuse to respond to the "explain gender identity" questions, and assume they'll be taken seriously?
I know it's unanswerable, but why do they still assume they can simply bulldoze past it and still win the argument? It totally bemuses me.
Shizuku, if you're genuinely posting in good faith (debatable), answer this question before going off on any more of your irrelevant tangents.
If you can't; consider your mission to educate failed, as it's the only (and I do mean only) thing we really need explained to us.
Thank you in advance...

Having held the hand of a trans boy crying whilst he ponders the options before him, I find your glib "walk in the park" particularly crass.

I apologise for not making it explicitly clear that I meant it's nothing like a walk in the park for a teenage girl to embark on the journey of egg preservation. Maybe I should have added this face to the end of my post

Maybe Shizuku can bring in other people to help explain it?

I know it's difficult to respond to so many posters asking lots of different questions and who are not automatically sympathetic to the ideology.

Surely someone can explain gender identity (ideally in layman's terms).

I really want to be educated as to what “gender identity” is as we. I do not get it at all, how does anyone know what gender they are?

I also really want to know how fertility is preserved for someone who has been on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. How does that work? And isn’t it really traumatising for trans boys (I went through IVF, I thought it was horrific)?

Here are some details -

If you are going through a gender transition and having medical treatment (including hormone therapy or surgery) you may wish to store eggs, sperm or embryos to preserve your fertility for the future. You will need medical advice about your options and the best timing for storing eggs or sperm and, if you are storing eggs, you will need to go through a cycle of IVF treatment in order to stimulate your egg production.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health's Standards of Care state:

"Many transgender, transsexual and gender nonconforming people will want to have children. Because feminizing/masculnizing hormone therapy limits fertility, it is desirable for patients to make decisions concerning fertility before starting hormone therapy or undergoing surgery to remove/alter their reproductive organs... MtF patients, especially those who have not already reproduced, should be informed about sperm preservation options and encouraged to consider banking their sperm prior to hormone therapy... Reproductive options for FtM patients might include oocyte (egg) or embryo freezing. The frozen gametes and embryo could later be used with a surrogate woman to carry a pregnancy."

UK law allows you to store eggs, sperm or embryos at a fertility clinic in the UK, subject to the regulatory rules which the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority oversees.

One of the most important rules is consent. You must consent to the storage of your own eggs or sperm (or to the storage of embryos created using them) and they cannot be used in any way unless you agree. Find out more about the consent rules for gametes.

The law also governs how long your gametes can be stored for. The basic storage period for eggs or sperm in the UK is ten years. However, if you are storing eggs or sperm in anticipation of medical treatment that will make you 'prematurely infertile', you can extend this storage period every ten years, up to a maximum of 55 years. It is important that you renew your storage period before each ten-year period expires, when a doctor also has to certify that you are prematurely infertile.

Storage for up to 55 years