What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

And isn’t it really traumatising for trans boys (I went through IVF, I thought it was horrific)?

I would have thought so. I imagine going through IVF is tough enough, and that's a process for an adult knowing that they really, really, want a child.

For a teenager who suffers from dysphoria, going through the process on the basis that they might want children one day, it must be almost unbearable.

I know it's unanswerable, but why do they still assume they can simply bulldoze past it and still win the argument? It totally bemuses me.

Because talking to them is a game of repeatedly playing the same chess moves with a pigeon.

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.
It sounds like you don't actually know what a lot of locker rooms are like. At my kids' school and there are no separate showers and cubicles. They all shower and change together - but in same sex areas. At my local pool, the showers are same sex but are open. I don't want to shower in front of males and neither do any of the girls and women I know. The real question is why on earth do you think we should have to?

@toolatetofixate
So what do we go on? Because when I was growing up I cut my hair short, wore boys clothes and insisted people call me "John Boy" (my family watched The Waltons on Sundays and this name struck me as the epitome of "boyness" which I desired).

Me too. Boys haircut, wore my brothers clothes, started a street gang and took on fights with boys and was very pleased to "pass", which did happen some of the time. Sensible parents who just accepted me as a tomboy.

I know about IVF, I had it. I am also informed about embryo freezing etc.

I am just trying to get my head around how someone who has had puberty blockers can get viable eggs?

Also what age do cross sex hormones start? It seems to need to be done before that? Daily injections of hormones in the stomach and other invasive procedures (include GC retrieval) should probably have a very strict age limit...?

Are you unable to answer what 'gender identity' is, OP?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I know it's unanswerable, but why do they still assume they can simply bulldoze past it and still win the argument? It totally bemuses me.

Because talking to them is a game of repeatedly playing the same chess moves with a pigeon.

I know this, really . I'm trying not to get deleted (again). It's very easily to get deleted on these people's say so.

Wool, I think they have to restart the puberty process in order to retrieve the eggs.

For a teenager who doesn't want the body of a woman, this is traumatic in itself. The egg retrieval process is even more traumatic.

That's why many of them choose not to go through with it, from what I understand.

[quote flyingfoxkins]@toolatetofixate
So what do we go on? Because when I was growing up I cut my hair short, wore boys clothes and insisted people call me "John Boy" (my family watched The Waltons on Sundays and this name struck me as the epitome of "boyness" which I desired).

Me too. Boys haircut, wore my brothers clothes, started a street gang and took on fights with boys and was very pleased to "pass", which did happen some of the time. Sensible parents who just accepted me as a tomboy.[/quote]

Yes. I was ridiculously proud of myself if someone mistook me for a boy. The pride was tangible.

I'd have been a prime candidate for what's happening to young boys and girls now. It's bloody awful.

I saw a teenage ftm transitioner interviewed on TV. The attitude was very much 'I haven't really thought about kids, but in the future if I want one, I'll just adopt.'

They were no older than 16, possibly a bit younger.

Having held the hand of a trans boy crying whilst he ponders the options before him, I find your glib "walk in the park" particularly crass.

And yet you gloss over the health issues of egg harvesting. Completely. I actually think you DON’T know the risks.

The risk of stroke is around 2%. There are risks also for many other complications, often downplayed. The chances of that frozen egg being viable without fertilization is very low for the risk. The health risks are even higher in teens.

So, tell us. How healthy is it to pressure on a teen, let alone an adult, to risk shortening their life to go through this process?

And even worse to pressure a teen to make a life long decision on who the father of their future children is to at least have a better than low chance of their egg being viable?

Do you honestly not see how huge the difference is between sperm preservation vs egg preservation is? Not even in the same realm.

I have yet to see even one of your posts acknowledge the difference in health risk between male and female. Instead there is lots of deflection and distraction. Yet, people reading these threads have got a good understanding by now of the risks.

Particularly after detrans awareness day last week. Kidney failure, mini strokes, vaginal atrophy, full hysterectomies (which then have a huge risk of early dementia, ie even showing signs of dementia before 40!) cannot be hand waved away and minimised. These are late teens and early twenties females reporting these side effects.

@EdgeOfACoin

I saw a teenage ftm transitioner interviewed on TV. The attitude was very much 'I haven't really thought about kids, but in the future if I want one, I'll just adopt.'

They were no older than 16, possibly a bit younger.

Wasn’t something similar presented to the court during the Bell vs Tavi case? It was like, yeah... no problems, I’ll just adopt or use a surrogate.

I kind of think it is enlightening to see comments by OP around fertility. This is Mumsnet and ALL are welcome, but you can be assured there are plenty of us on here who are women who know a great deal about fertility. And the ins and outs of most fertility situations and issues.

Deflection by telling us you have sat with some transboys is NO where near having actual knowledge of this. But do continue because it simply shows where you are coming from.

OP have you gone through IVF? Forgive me if I have missed some posts on the thread.

When a young girl is displaying behavioural tendencies that obviously fall outside the female stereotypes, and within the male stereotypes, we typically call her a "tomboy". It's a given that not every single thing she ever does in her life will defy female gender stereotypes, but it's also a given that if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category that we recognise as a tomboy.

Am I the only one here that thinks this reads like it was written in 1970 by a village vicar?

Talking about girls in this way in 2021 sounds like the poster is stuck in a timewarp. The word tomboy is hideous and if you are STILL using it as a frame of reference it really does expose a ridiculously old-fashioned perspective.

The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.

I'd love to know what gave you that impression, Shizuku?

There is limited data on the uptake of fertility preservation in children and adolescents who transition medically. What data there is points to an extremely low uptake of that option (I've not seen it quoted higher than 5%). There are a number of reasons for that, not least of which is that puberty-blocked patients have little interest in going through puberty for that purpose, as it defeats the point (which is alleviating the distress caused by gender dysphoria).

Truly bizarre is reading in the sparse literature focusing on the issue that clinicians freely acknowledge that these young patients lack the decision-making capacity and maturity to understand the importance of fertility preservation, but no such acknowledgement is forthcoming about the young patients lack of decision-making-capacity and maturity to understand the consequences of a medical transition.

(I've attached a screenshot from this paper on fertility preservation.)

So, just to sum up:

1. No engagement from the OP or anyone else on the objective criteria for 'gender identity'.

1. No engagement from the OP or anyone else on Joppe's attitude to the younger girls who may not want to share a changing room with Joppe.

1. No engagement from the OP or anyone else on the health risks to the teenagers who are going through the egg retrieval process and who are taking on such a huge mental burden at such a young age.

Yes, this thread has been very educational.

Silence speaks volumes.

For those who have inexplicably missed it the hundreds of times I have said what gender identity is, you may find this helpful, at least as a starter.

If not, do direct your questions to the American Academy of Pediatricians - a professional body of 67,000 pediatricians who produced this page:

www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Or indeed any of the tens of thousands of doctors and scientists who study the phenomenon across the world.

I know I know - it's all a big sinister plot by powerful trans masterminds who have brainwashed all the scientists and doctors in the world, and Mumsnet is the only place that they haven't reached yet...

@Scepticaltank

When a young girl is displaying behavioural tendencies that obviously fall outside the female stereotypes, and within the male stereotypes, we typically call her a "tomboy". It's a given that not every single thing she ever does in her life will defy female gender stereotypes, but it's also a given that if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category that we recognise as a tomboy.

Am I the only one here that thinks this reads like it was written in 1970 by a village vicar?

Talking about girls in this way in 2021 sounds like the poster is stuck in a timewarp. The word tomboy is hideous and if you are STILL using it as a frame of reference it really does expose a ridiculously old-fashioned perspective.

Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like it was written by someone trying to deflect away from the content of the post to the character of the poster?

Perhaps you would find the Google Ngram viewer useful to see how much the word tomboy is used now compared to the 1970s

books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=tomboy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ctomboy%3B%2Cc0#t1%3B%2Ctomboy%3B%2Cc0

You must be joking. If you've answered that many times, just copy paste it then. You have answered approximately nothing.

From that link: "gender identity" refers to an internal sense people have of who they are that comes from an interaction of biological traits, developmental influences, and environmental conditions."

So, stereotypes mainly. There's a whole section on parents making sure their children get a diverse and balanced view of what the sexes are capable of so it's not just about stereotypes. And explains that stereotypes change with expectations.

I'm not sure what you think this proves.

Also given the quality of the usual arguments, I certainly don't think in terms of 'masterminds'.

@kaineus

You must be joking. If you've answered that many times, just copy paste it then. You have answered approximately nothing.

It's literally right above your post - you probably don't even have to scroll, just ,move your gaze upwards a tiny bit.

[quote flyingfoxkins]@StellaAndCrow -
Yes, I agree. And it sounds like they are attracted to boys. It would be so much more inclusive to have support around the possibility of growing up as a gay boy.

Yes, that was my thought too. Why rule this out as a possibility when the child is this young.[/quote]

Some parents just can't cope with the idea of facing questions like those described by WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo, about their child's non-compliance with sex stereotypes.

twitter.com/TheProject_Ed/status/1371713528869060610?s=20

Number of times a word is used in books increases at the same time as the number of books increases. A scientific revelation? I think not!

The graph of the word trousers is a similar curve. What is that proof of?

Most of the content posted is a poor standard of assertion over analysis, it's not worth any effort to deflect from, and most people here have pointed out repeatedly the flaws.

This is a feminist board. You are lecturing women about girls being tomboys. You really do not understand.

Perhaps you would find the Google Ngram viewer useful to see how much the word tomboy is used now compared to the 1970s

The marked drop off in the use of tomboy in 2013 strikes me as a point of interest
Not that it's possible to draw any conclusions from a single data point but it does raise questions