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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

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toolatetofixate · 16/03/2021 18:33

@kaineus

I'm trying to be as delicate as possible regarding this, but I am curious OP, are you trans? You seem heavily invested in shutting down female posters regarding this topic and don't seem to be engaging in good faith. If you're not trans, may I ask why you are so determined to speak for trans people, some of who may disagree with you on these points? I understand if it's personal, but your behavior strikes me as odd.

Many trans people disagree with what @Shizuku is saying. They don't get a look in. Their opinions are irrelevant.

Gerla · 16/03/2021 18:52

We exclude males from female spaces, not because we think all males are awful, because:

  1. most people prefer to change/use bathrooms with people of the same sex for privacy and dignity
  2. statistically females are more at risk from males not females
  3. males have a penis which means the can rape, and many females are "triggered" by this as many have been victims of assault This is basic safeguarding. @shizuku Which of these 3 circumstances changes when a male becomes a trans woman?
Deliriumoftheendless · 16/03/2021 19:02

This thread has been a perfect example of where “can’t you just be nice?” ends up.

No to girls having boundaries.

No to girls having privacy.

No to girls saying no.

Which is nothing new, just dressed up different.

And it’s not even about the child- it’s about the adult repeatedly stating girls have no right to boundaries. No right to privacy. No right to say no to males.

It has been repeatedly said, very clearly.

NiceGerbil · 16/03/2021 19:24

This film is 10 years old and in German.

I mean that's a bit random.

The reason for this sort of thing is to essentially use children to justify a load of other stuff.

Look how cute and pretty this child is! Why would anyone be mean?

(But it's actually a justification for self ID and all that flows from it).

And in fact it's not mean to say that people can't change sex and the reason for sex specific stuff, data by sex etc does not vanish because a child in Germany 10 years ago was cute.

WoolOfBat · 16/03/2021 19:42

The film is in Dutch to be exact Grin

I think that the cute trans girl (and all trans girls) should be allowed to search out girl groups, play with girls and wear dresses if they want. Whatever makes them happy and everyone should be very supportive of that.

Separately, penis people should for safe guarding purposes not be together with non-penis people in certain situations due to safe guarding. Penis people should change separately. If any penis person is uncomfortable to change with other penis people, they should be offered their own space for privacy.

This whole gender identity bing is becoming very complicated. I think we simply need to think in penis people and non penis people when it comes to children and teenagers.

Helleofabore · 16/03/2021 20:01

Flowers for Phyllis

This is just another example of where women feel pressured to reveal deep trauma to try to make people understand the risks in this society where some people feel their needs have priority.

That women feel they have to do this to highlight the disproportionality makes this even worse.

Because people refuse to listen and understand where conflict exists. Their need, or their friend’s/child’s/sibling’s need is always deemed more important in these cases.

I am sorry Phyllis. You have been heard, at least by us.

KitchenFairy · 16/03/2021 20:04

I think we simply need to think in penis people and non penis people when it comes to children and teenagers.

I agree... if only we could think of some names to collectively give these people rather than penis people and non-penis people. Grin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/03/2021 20:37

agree... if only we could think of some names to collectively give these people rather than penis people and non-penis people.

Trans ally feminist extraordinaire Laurie Penny made a fool of herself with this! Grin

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.
WoolOfBat · 16/03/2021 20:46

We will all have to think a lot about this. I am sure that there will be some way to refer to the two groups Grin.

Is that tweet real eresh ?Shock that is incredible if so ShockShock

In the meantime, for safe guarding purposes only, I think that penis people and non-penis people is an easy and straightforward way to divide children and teens.

AfternoonToffee · 16/03/2021 20:49

Does anyone know what became of the child in the video?

KitchenFairy · 16/03/2021 20:59

@AfternoonToffee

Does anyone know what became of the child in the video?
Someone upthread found a person of their name from the NL on Twitter. I think I found the same profile, and I do think it’s them. I’m not going to share their Twitter details but they look like a happy, sometimes flamboyant, sometimes gender non-conforming, man, they don’t describe themselves as a woman or trans woman.
AfternoonToffee · 16/03/2021 21:15

Thank you kitchen it would be good if they were living a life of happiness however that worked out for them.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/03/2021 21:17

There's also a Facebook page for the film, but no pictures of the child since 2015. They were still presenting as female then. Well, they were wearing a skirt.

Stroopwaffle5000 · 16/03/2021 21:22

My 9 year old DD is one of the girliest peoples I've ever met, she has, however, NEVER played with a Barbie in her life! She loves to play Minecraft and Roblox, but she also loves ballet and wearing pretty dresses. She's just a girl who has a wide variety of interests. When I was a kid I wanted to be a unicorn, I mean I really, really thought I was a unicorn! My OH wanted to be a tree when he was 6. He said it was because all the kids played under it so would make him happy 🤣 It's safe to say that we changed our minds!

MiddlesexGirl · 16/03/2021 21:22

You know how kids like to do what other people in their peer group are doing?
And you know how girls tend to play with Barbie dolls more than boys?
And you know how trans girls see other girls as their peer group?

I know this was a long way up thread but it is truly scary how these observations somehow translate to boys who play with 'girl' toys must be trans girls.

OhHolyJesus · 16/03/2021 21:39

I haven't read the whole thread but have dipped in and out.

Since were sharing videos I thought I'd share this. A short piece on clinics in the States treating the children presenting with gender dysphoria and what that means for America's girls hitting puberty.

vimeo.com/524311446/4a0f725b0a?fbclid=IwAR33s3atMIhtvi0PAXJmbatdWeUIzvx5Lmz2JkIm3ZNOAL1uUj0TI6VbGeQ

ItsLateHumpty · 17/03/2021 08:32

@Shizuku consider me educated. I personally think you’ve done the transgendered community a huge disservice with this, and your other, thread(s).

Phyllis Flowers [tea] you shouldn’t have any need to recount your hurt to justify what is yours by rights. That some people make it necessary, and then don’t even bother to listen, is abhorrent.

Tibtom · 17/03/2021 09:29

@MiddlesexGirl

You know how kids like to do what other people in their peer group are doing? And you know how girls tend to play with Barbie dolls more than boys? And you know how trans girls see other girls as their peer group?

I know this was a long way up thread but it is truly scary how these observations somehow translate to boys who play with 'girl' toys must be trans girls.

These days girls tend to stop playing swith dolls around 8 or 9. I can't imagine a bunch of high school girls choosing to play with Barbies unless they felt they had to 'be kind' to someone.
ArabellaScott · 17/03/2021 09:56

This suggestion that if a child plays with a certain toy it means they are actually 'trans' or in the 'wrong body' is so damaging. It's damaging to children and it will actually reinforce stereotyping and policing of gendered behaviour.

We have to let children play. Let them play with dolls, trucks, whatever they feel like playing with. Schools have largely been on board with this for years - the children have toys, they aren't separated out into 'girl' and 'boy' toys.

Likewise, girls and boys play happily together. Both sexes need and are entitled to privacy when changing and toileting. Very simply, girls are likely to start periods around 10, they will usually want to be apart from males in toilets from that age if not younger. They are entitled to privacy.

We could probably do more to challenge stereotpying wrt clothing - so long as it's functional and comfortable, why is clothing separated into 'girl' and 'boy' clothing? Or hair length, for that matter.

I can't believe we've gone backwards and have to actually spell this stuff out.

gardenbird48 · 17/03/2021 10:00

These days girls tend to stop playing with dolls around 8 or 9. I can't imagine a bunch of high school girls choosing to play with Barbies unless they felt they had to 'be kind' to someone.

good point, only one of my DDs played with barbies and they were ditched long before the end of primary school.

I know a couple of boys who have girls as their entire friendship group - the boys are rather camp and they all have a lovely time together (although sleepovers will be a no-no).

It doesn't mean that the boys should really be girls - those two boys are the perfect illustration of a boy widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a boy (although how we regressed to such narrow sex stereotypes after the Olympic standard boundary pushing of the 1980s I don't know).

We still haven't established any idea of the frame of reference that doesn't involve stereotypes that a boy (or a three year old) would use to determine that he is really a girl.

I also think it is really sad that the child in this video is being encouraged into a situation where at a time when children are extremely conscious of their changing bodies anyway, adults are confirming that this child's body is wrong and needs to be changed fundamentally with powerful drugs.

It struck me when Joppe was in the pool and mentioned that they were constantly worried about their penis being visible and looking enviously at the girls bodies.

If Joppe wasn't trying to present as a girl and constantly worrying about not 'passing', I think a layer of stress would be removed from their life.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/03/2021 10:24

Is that tweet real eresh ?

100%

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 17/03/2021 10:24

Both my children (16 and 14) are friends with large groups of girls and boys. I don't think I know any children of their age who hang out with just girls or just boys. My brothers and I were the same at their ages.

Gender stereotypes aren't just damaging for the children who are being transed either. DS2 has long hair. Almost waist length. He often gets called derogatory names and asked why he's in the boys toilets. When he says he's a boy he gets called transgender and/or trans based insults. Now of course mixed sex toilets would stop that, and he said he sometimes wishes they had them at school. Then he thought about it a bit and said that, although it would be better for him, it could be worse for the girls and therefore he knows they aren't possible.
Although interestingly DS1s school does have mixed sex toilets and AFAIK there are no issues with them.

UsedUpUsername · 17/03/2021 10:37

It struck me when Joppe was in the pool and mentioned that they were constantly worried about their penis being visible and looking enviously at the girls bodies

I wish somebody could just tell them they will never be a biological girl but that’s okay ... otherwise it will be a life of constant disappointment even if everyone tries to #bekind

Galvantulang · 17/03/2021 11:19

Yeah this was the line that stuck out for me too. :( I took the screenshot as when I read it at first I couldn't believe it was a direct quote)

The fact is that adults have helped this child to be put on medication which will render them infertile. The child believes it will be fine to tell boys 'later' as they won't be able to tell.

It's awful that the child callously dismisses the younger girls feelings (thanks partly to the person asking questions saying "weren't there some stupid kids in your class?" i.e. Non believers) but also really sad to me that they've been sold this lie as a solution. :(

No child is winning here.

So no @Shizuku this video doesn't help.

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:24

@CharlieParley

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes."

The doctrine of gender identity connects embodying the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes of the opposite sex with (trans)gender identity. When a person who is male states they identify as a woman, this is not and it cannot be based on knowing what it is to inhabit a female body or what it is like to be born female in a male-dominated world. They are however using the word woman as a referent. (A referent is the word we use to refer to a living being, an inanimate object, a location, an abstraction or an idea.) In this case the word woman is a stand-in for everything that this male individual believes makes a woman. We know from countless autobiographical works, videos and self-reports that in the absence of knowing what it feels like to inhabit a female body, this belief centres on the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with being female and with that individual's strong preference for any number of those stereotypes.

Which is why training courses delivered by transgender organisations focus on stereotypes when explaining what it is to have a transgender identity.

Me: "Here are examples of when it isn't."

That study does not disaggregate its data to allow for such an absolute statement. It lists various categories of stereotypes, but it does not tell us whether even one of its study subjects rejected all the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't even mention in passing whether a study subject who has not adopted one stereotype of the opposite sex is more or less likely to also reject other stereotypes, or whether those who haven't adopted opposite-sex stereotypes always embody the stereotypes of their own sex instead. The study authors also fail to disaggregate the data by identity, i.e. those children who told them they do not identify with their own or the opposite sex or who identify with both are subsumed into the transgender group. So we cannot tell whether stereotypes are more important for those who do identify as the opposite sex and less important for those who identify as both or neither. The study only mentions that some children adopt some stereotypes of their own sex, but says nothing about how these same children feel about all the other measured stereotypes. And finally, if a child were to believe they are the opposite sex because they strongly prefer just a single stereotype associated with the opposite sex, they would still be basing their belief on stereotypes.

The authors don't actually mention tomboys in the body of the study, or the conclusions, so I'm not sure why you are so adamant about that word. It only appears in a brief literature review at the beginning and the connected references at the end. Instead the study states that like all children, those who identify as trans embody some stereotypes more strongly and others less strongly. As femininity and masculinity do indeed exist on a spectrum, and we all fall somewhere in between, this is entirely expected.

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes even when it isn't."

Do you understand what class-based analysis is? It does not depend on all members of a class meeting all of the described characteristics to be valid.

I do believe that you'd be better off directing your ire at trans rights organisations and campaigners, who have been pushing the connection between (trans)gender identity and stereotypes for decades now. I would welcome a return to the previous understanding of transsexualism and gender dysphoria as a type of body dysmorphia, but I won't hold my breath as this does not seem to serve current aims.

I'm afraid you won't be able to obscure the conclusion that easily.

It's actually very simple. The claim here is that being trans is all abut gender stereotypes.

When a young girl is displaying behavioural tendencies that obviously fall outside the female stereotypes, and within the male stereotypes, we typically call her a "tomboy". It's a given that not every single thing she ever does in her life will defy female gender stereotypes, but it's also a given that if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category that we recognise as a tomboy.

If being trans was purely about conforming to gender stereotypes, then all trans girls would be notably gender-conforming and would never fall into mostly, but not completely, stereotype-defying category of tomboy.

The conclusion drawn by the commentator in the article is the logical and obvious one, that some trans girls are not particularly gender-conforming and fall easily into the category that anyone would recognise as a gender non-conforming girl, or for short, "tomboy".

You see the same in trans adults. I know a trans man who is very feminine, very gay and a fashion designer. I know a trans woman who is a butch lesbian and you only have to look around you to see trans woman racing drivers, boxers etc.

The fact of the matter is that most people conform to a lot of gender stereotypes - most girls and women wear skirts at least some of the time, most wear at least some make up, most boys and men have shorter hair than most girls and women etc, but at the same time, most people defy at least some stereotypes, some people defy many or even most stereotypes. Trans people are exactly the same.

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