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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 16/03/2021 15:40

*Beowulfa
*
Seems a good summary, thank you Grin

ChancesWhatChances · 16/03/2021 15:42

@MNHQ why was my comment deleted please? There was nothing transphobic or hateful at all there? I thanked Garden for their clarification that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria was no longer needed to be treated as trans, and asked trans women why they wanted to share our spaces if we were so hateful and dangerous to them. I also encouraged them to celebrate the fact that they were trans women, because they should be proud of transitioning from male to transwoman and they definitely deserve their own spaces and protections as members of the trans population.

PurpleHoodie · 16/03/2021 15:44

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4189847-Its-Detransition-Awareness-Day-Today

Turns out teenagers quite like just being females happy in their bodies if left alone.

CharlieParley · 16/03/2021 15:46

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes."

The doctrine of gender identity connects embodying the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes of the opposite sex with (trans)gender identity. When a person who is male states they identify as a woman, this is not and it cannot be based on knowing what it is to inhabit a female body or what it is like to be born female in a male-dominated world. They are however using the word woman as a referent. (A referent is the word we use to refer to a living being, an inanimate object, a location, an abstraction or an idea.) In this case the word woman is a stand-in for everything that this male individual believes makes a woman. We know from countless autobiographical works, videos and self-reports that in the absence of knowing what it feels like to inhabit a female body, this belief centres on the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with being female and with that individual's strong preference for any number of those stereotypes.

Which is why training courses delivered by transgender organisations focus on stereotypes when explaining what it is to have a transgender identity.

Me: "Here are examples of when it isn't."

That study does not disaggregate its data to allow for such an absolute statement. It lists various categories of stereotypes, but it does not tell us whether even one of its study subjects rejected all the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't even mention in passing whether a study subject who has not adopted one stereotype of the opposite sex is more or less likely to also reject other stereotypes, or whether those who haven't adopted opposite-sex stereotypes always embody the stereotypes of their own sex instead. The study authors also fail to disaggregate the data by identity, i.e. those children who told them they do not identify with their own or the opposite sex or who identify with both are subsumed into the transgender group. So we cannot tell whether stereotypes are more important for those who do identify as the opposite sex and less important for those who identify as both or neither. The study only mentions that some children adopt some stereotypes of their own sex, but says nothing about how these same children feel about all the other measured stereotypes. And finally, if a child were to believe they are the opposite sex because they strongly prefer just a single stereotype associated with the opposite sex, they would still be basing their belief on stereotypes.

The authors don't actually mention tomboys in the body of the study, or the conclusions, so I'm not sure why you are so adamant about that word. It only appears in a brief literature review at the beginning and the connected references at the end. Instead the study states that like all children, those who identify as trans embody some stereotypes more strongly and others less strongly. As femininity and masculinity do indeed exist on a spectrum, and we all fall somewhere in between, this is entirely expected.

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes even when it isn't."

Do you understand what class-based analysis is? It does not depend on all members of a class meeting all of the described characteristics to be valid.

I do believe that you'd be better off directing your ire at trans rights organisations and campaigners, who have been pushing the connection between (trans)gender identity and stereotypes for decades now. I would welcome a return to the previous understanding of transsexualism and gender dysphoria as a type of body dysmorphia, but I won't hold my breath as this does not seem to serve current aims.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 16/03/2021 15:46

Gerbil
My DD loves those, her and DH throw them at each other's feet and I inhale the lovely gunpowder vapour Grin You can definitely buy them in the funny little gift shops in Skegness.

CharlieParley · 16/03/2021 15:52

[quote continuallyconflating]@CharlieParley
Did you spot this section in the discussion?

Our results demonstrated that transgender children’s gender development does not appear to show lingering impact of early sex-assignment or sex-specific socialization. That is, a 10-y-old transgender girl who was labeled a boy at birth and raised for 9 y as a boy, a 10-y-old transgender girl who was labeled a boy at birth and raised for 5 y as a boy, and a 10-yold cisgender girl (sibling or control) who was labeled a girl at birth and was raised for 10 y as a girl did not significantly differ in their identification and preferences on the assessed measures.

Which suggests that the urgent need for transitioning children as a life saving act is perhaps overstated...[/quote]
Yes, I did. But much of the study is rather confused, so I don't think the authors necessarily recognise what this means. IIRC, critics of the paper did pick this up and rejected this notion as harmful to the trans community. (Amongst other things.)

CharlieParley · 16/03/2021 15:54

@NiceGerbil

'Does anyone else remember those cap-guns with the roll of red paper and the black gunpowder dots?

They were way cool, especially if you tore them up, stacked the black dots, and hit them with a rock.'

YES! they were awesome. Can you still get them? (Sorry tangent)

I've seen them in some nostalgia-themed shop. But for the life of me, I cannot remember where.

They were fun. We went through rolls and rolls of that. And not in the guns Grin

PurpleHoodie · 16/03/2021 15:56

KitchenFairy

Thanks for all the thread links, I had not heard of Miss B’s challenge and where to donate but I found it by googling Miss B Hate Crime Challenge and she was top of the listings - thanks@PurpleHoodie

Forgot to say Kitchen

Every little helps Star

StellaAndCrow · 16/03/2021 16:04

Thank you for the lovely memory of the smell of cap guns! I quite fancy getting one now - seaside gift shops you say . . .

RedDogsBeg · 16/03/2021 16:07

Male horses are generally gelded unless kept by experts. Half a ton of horse with the scent of a mare in his nostrils is impossible to manage, and very dangerous if not handled properly.

Went to a place where they bred Suffolk Heavy Horses, there was a massive stallion there that could only be handled by men, women weren't allowed anywhere near, if he got the merest scent of a woman he became an unmanageable and extremely dangerous nightmare. No amount of self-identity, gender, or innate sense of whatever made a blind bit of difference, that stallion knew exactly which sex was which, fortunately so did the people running the centre, recipe for disaster and carnage otherwise.

MrsWooster · 16/03/2021 16:10

I’m torn between fury at the op’s Teflon status which allows blatant homophobia to be posted unchallenged, and amused admiration of the women here who look at the half arsed attempts at arguments and gotchas, roll up their sleeves, mutter ‘hold my beer’ and do a perfect, forensic, academic dissection of the bullshit, then turn round and resume normal service without missing a beat. Brava.

CongealedCrags · 16/03/2021 16:13

@MrsWooster

I’m torn between fury at the op’s Teflon status which allows blatant homophobia to be posted unchallenged, and amused admiration of the women here who look at the half arsed attempts at arguments and gotchas, roll up their sleeves, mutter ‘hold my beer’ and do a perfect, forensic, academic dissection of the bullshit, then turn round and resume normal service without missing a beat. Brava.
Indeed. That's the sort of echo chamber I like.
WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/03/2021 16:20

Reposting this without the swearing in the hope OP will actually answer this time. I assume the swearing was the reason it was deleted last time?

We do have a word for "girls who are not trans". Its girls

So @Shizuku what do you say to traumatised 10/11/12+ year old me? Why should I have to accept penises in what should be penis free zones? Why do I have to "be kind" but the trans people don't?

I will happily stand/march/protest/fundraise with the trans community for 3rd spaces. But give up my safe spaces. No thank you.

gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 16:26

[quote KitchenFairy]This is so sad, from another thread linked above - I feel so sorry for this girl/young woman who now has to find an alternative to sharing a changing room with males.

mobile.twitter.com/JVanMaren/status/1196528937259732992[/quote]
that is so sad for that girl who now has no alternative.

Unfortunately, as the aforementioned Katy Montgomerie illustrated so perfectly there is a strong likelihood that male people retain male behaviours.

Katy and Katy's friend Shon were giggling with each other on their high profile twitter accounts about the sound of a woman going to the toilet and 'hovering' like so many of us do.

That lady wasn't afforded much privacy in her female only facilities being forced to share with someone displaying the behaviour of a teenage boy (although my teenage boy a) wouldn't be in the ladies toilets and b) wouldn't be sniggering to his friends about someone else's normal bodily functions).

Helleofabore · 16/03/2021 16:31

the sound of a woman going to the toilet and 'hovering' like so many of us do.

Ahh yes. I remember this one too!!

OP. When you post opinion pieces or even studies done by people, maybe really check their histories. Most particularly in regards to their own treatment of females.

Your appeals to authority really have fallen short of the mark.

gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 16:37

@MrsWooster

I’m torn between fury at the op’s Teflon status which allows blatant homophobia to be posted unchallenged, and amused admiration of the women here who look at the half arsed attempts at arguments and gotchas, roll up their sleeves, mutter ‘hold my beer’ and do a perfect, forensic, academic dissection of the bullshit, then turn round and resume normal service without missing a beat. Brava.
haha I like that image MrsW - there are some incisive writers on here - I am continually in awe of their knack of getting to the nub of an issue.

I always think it is worth it for the lurkers - and I do always appreciate the efforts of posters like op because it does help tease out the issues and gives us an opportunity to revisit themes and analyses from slightly new angles.

The facts remain the same though - however much we discuss them.

Daffodil Daffodil

Deliriumoftheendless · 16/03/2021 16:38

Why should any male, no matter how many female friends they have, get undressed with girls?

There is no good answer to this. There is just “because they want to.”

WarriorN · 16/03/2021 16:38

The OP will fully sidesteps all posts relating to any safeguarding WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

I've noticed that.

Very interesting.

PurpleHoodie · 16/03/2021 16:46

Apros of nothing TLCs "Creep" is now an earthworm going around my head Warrior.

Creep rhymes with neep - which is a nice segue into this thread.....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4192640-turnip-allotmenteering?pg=1

MrsWooster · 16/03/2021 16:46

Kudos to MNHQ who tell me they’ve deleted the op’s homophobic post.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/03/2021 16:52

@WarriorN

The OP will fully sidesteps all posts relating to any safeguarding WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

I've noticed that.

Very interesting.

Yes. They always do. But I'll keep posting and asking. Because if reading my 'story' makes even one person reconsider their stance on trans women in womens spaces then I consider it worth revisiting the memories. I just wish I was brave enough to go public. But to do so would tear my family apart and I don't want that.
RedDogsBeg · 16/03/2021 17:02

It's very noticeable that safeguarding and exclusion of women and girls from strict religious backgrounds, or who are or have suffered sexual abuse or who are disabled are topics they never, ever, answer questions on. No doubt they think we don't notice and if they ignore these issues they will go away - newsflash we do and they won't.

WarriorN · 16/03/2021 17:15

Narcissism isn't a traditionally inclusive trait.

WarriorN · 16/03/2021 17:16

I'm really sorry a male/s did that to you, Phyllis

WoolOfBat · 16/03/2021 17:21

Phyllis, I am so sorry for what you had to go through at the hands of male(s).

I cannot understand people who believe that young girls should be required to be in a vulnerable or half dressed state with people with penises. There is absolutely no safe guarding whatsoever in that. I cannot believe that this is happening.