What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

Seriously, I have to post this again?

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

Seriously, I have to post this again?

Here is my previous comment:

For anyone who'd like to read the actual study mentioned in that article, there is a link to a PDF version on this page.

As seems to be the case with other references posted by the OP in evidence, this study does not deny a connection between (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour, let alone disprove it. On the contrary, it emphasises the connection, finding a strong adoption of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex in the vast majority of the transgender group.

(I should add that gendered behaviour is only one aspect of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed on us - and measured in the study - preferences for one peer group over the other, and for the toys and clothing as well as for the hobbies and interests associated with each sex also play a role).

FWIW, tomboy refers to quite a specific type of girl, and that word does not mean a such a girl does not conform to the stereotypes society imposes on females in other ways. The existence of some male transgender children who engage in some masculine pursuits therefore does not disprove the connection drawn by the doctrine of gender identity (and trans rights organisations as well as campaigners) between transgender identity and gendered behaviour. Especially since these children typically do indeed embody other opposite-sex stereotypes.

(In my view that study, while interesting, has a number of shortcomings and it's also odd in various ways, not least of which is that it builds up strawmen to examine and then happily knocks them down. What that is supposed to prove I do not know. But read it for yourself if you like. At least now we all can.)

Yes, we are aware stating biological facts is deemed transphobic.

I'd guess you don't actually have a background in post graduate evidence based research do you?

I think that's pretty obvious, continuallyconflating. The OP's repetitive claims have been comprehensively trashed by the well informed regulars on this board

Why are we engaging? I ask myself the same question. OK, we post for the tens of thousands of lurkers but I think many posters have already done that comprehensively. No need to keep going. Surely the OP merits no more attention?

@DogsAreShit

I can't quite get my head around the idea that I'm seriously having to assert the fact that lesbians are female and not male. Are you ok OP? Only this is 1970s level homophobia that I really didn't think existed any more.

hilarious and scary in equal measure.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I for one am thoroughly convinced by the OP's arguments:

Trans girls are girls because they like playing with barbies, except when they're tomboys and don't play with barbies.

Straight women live in constant fear of the hordes of predatory lesbians that stalk our changing rooms.

We now know how girls feel about playing with trans girls, because someone asked one trans girl ten years ago.

Did I miss anything?

No I think that's it.

You know you are being goady op. We aren't stupid enough not to realise that genuine trans are no threat to women and girls. This isn't what the feminist board is about. You know our concerns are about predatory males identifying as lesbians. The world isn't butterflies and roses.

[quote JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]Not rtft but find the post incredibly patronising.
Girls and women are saying no. We are saying no. I'm sick and tired of the endless attempts to override our boundaries.
If you genuinely want to find a way forward for both women and trans people, you need to start respecting women's rights because this is a line in the sand that we are not willing to scuff over.

And as for a video on the subject that isn't stage managed:
mobile.twitter.com/JVanMaren/status/1196528937259732992[/quote]

This precisely.

OP, the video you posted is pure propaganda and clearly staged in many parts.

@Beowulfa

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I for one am thoroughly convinced by the OP's arguments:

Trans girls are girls because they like playing with barbies, except when they're tomboys and don't play with barbies.

Straight women live in constant fear of the hordes of predatory lesbians that stalk our changing rooms.

We now know how girls feel about playing with trans girls, because someone asked one trans girl ten years ago.

Did I miss anything?

Don't forget, we know girls have no objection to sharing a changing room with a trans girl because the ones who did object, could do nothing about it.

@CharlieParley

Seriously, I have to post this again?

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

Seriously, I have to post this again?

Here is my previous comment:

For anyone who'd like to read the actual study mentioned in that article, there is a link to a PDF version on this page.

As seems to be the case with other references posted by the OP in evidence, this study does not deny a connection between (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour, let alone disprove it. On the contrary, it emphasises the connection, finding a strong adoption of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex in the vast majority of the transgender group.

(I should add that gendered behaviour is only one aspect of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed on us - and measured in the study - preferences for one peer group over the other, and for the toys and clothing as well as for the hobbies and interests associated with each sex also play a role).

FWIW, tomboy refers to quite a specific type of girl, and that word does not mean a such a girl does not conform to the stereotypes society imposes on females in other ways. The existence of some male transgender children who engage in some masculine pursuits therefore does not disprove the connection drawn by the doctrine of gender identity (and trans rights organisations as well as campaigners) between transgender identity and gendered behaviour. Especially since these children typically do indeed embody other opposite-sex stereotypes.

(In my view that study, while interesting, has a number of shortcomings and it's also odd in various ways, not least of which is that it builds up strawmen to examine and then happily knocks them down. What that is supposed to prove I do not know. But read it for yourself if you like. At least now we all can.)

"On the contrary, it emphasises the connection, finding a strong adoption of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex in the vast majority of the transgender group."

You mean that the majority of trans kids behave like the majority of cis kids. There you have it everyone - most girls, cis and trans, are not tomboys, but some are. Who knew?

"The existence of some male transgender children who engage in some masculine pursuits therefore does not disprove the connection drawn by the doctrine of gender identity"

It literally does.

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes."

Me: "Here are examples of when it isn't."

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes even when it isn't."

Thank you for continuing to post that Charley.

I’m waiting for the op to say they are one of those fabled trans woman lesbians, so male, lesbian and a feminist. They are really enjoying attempting to push all of our buttons today.

...Or maybe they will just link to the same bullshit video and call us names.

The OP is bating. She wants us to be transphobic so that it can be on Twitter. It’s not going to happen OP. Infact OP it’s only you who has been homophobic.

@CharlieParley
Did you spot this section in the discussion?

Our results demonstrated that transgender children’s gender development does not appear to show lingering impact of early sex-assignment or sex-specific socialization. That is, a 10-y-old transgender girl who was labeled a boy at birth and raised for 9 y as a boy, a 10-y-old transgender girl who was labeled a boy at birth and raised for 5 y as a boy, and a 10-yold cisgender girl (sibling or control) who was labeled a girl at birth and was raised for 10 y as a girl did not significantly differ in their identification and preferences on the assessed measures.

Which suggests that the urgent need for transitioning children as a life saving act is perhaps overstated...

Please don’t use the word CIS OP. We don’t like it and it got you deleted last time.

'Does anyone else remember those cap-guns with the roll of red paper and the black gunpowder dots?

They were way cool, especially if you tore them up, stacked the black dots, and hit them with a rock.'

YES! they were awesome. Can you still get them? (Sorry tangent)

Loved the silver guns

OP has it occurred to you that people who have trouble understanding the concept of internal gender id will understandably link it to stereotypes because they have no other frame of reference.

Same as how athiest people cannot imagine spiritual feelings.

People who have no internal sense of gender are trans by definition- stonewall.

Why are you essentially arguing with a bunch of people defined as trans and telling them they are wrong?

That feels inconsistent.

For this particular child, it is about stereotypes, they tell us so.
Is it possible this particular child has a different understanding of trans to OP who says it's nothing to do with stereotypes?
Could a child who presents like this even be mistaken according to OP if they've declared themselves a girl on the basis of stereotypes and actually it's not about stereotypes?
Would it not be best to find out before you put them on drugs?

Haven't RTWFT because it will inevitably be the OPs goady shitshow, however this is the right place to direct people to Miss B's fundraising garden.

She's a biological, disabled teenage girl who is raising funds who is taking government departments to court to be able to state who is female and who is male in school.

Use your time and money and energy to dig ladies.

There is no effort to engage with a group many of whom stonewall define as trans on this.

Just an insistence that their trans experience is the wrong one.

Of course these people don't tend to self define as trans. Just as people. But then they are told they must be cis and are oppressors.

It doesn't make much sense.

the video you posted is pure propaganda and clearly staged in many parts.

But maybe there is a group of people for who material reality depends on believing that documentary makers don’t rely on bums on seats to make a living and get acclaim. So that they can believe everything they see in a documentary that has to be sold to be seen.

This is NOT a documentary created by a independent TV channel or a group known for expose or investigative documentaries where both sides of any debate are asked to contribute.

I am quite amazed that ANYONE capable of critical analysis is drawing definitive points from it with the view that by doing so will expose readers to allow them to draw logical conclusions.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4191950-It-s-a-beau-oooootiful-day-on-the-garden-today-Now-which-beds-shall-I-dig

Read this thread.

@Shizuku

"and due to the amazing phenomenon of chimerism (I learnt about it here), we may actually retain some of those cells in our bodies! "

That's right - so many women have at least some XY chromosomes.

I misremembered the term - Microchimerism is the correct term.

It isn't an argument for women having xy chromosomes - the whole point of microchimerism is that the foetal cells are not our cells!

It can also happen between twins and artificially through blood transfusion.

Microchimerism
In humans, chimerism most commonly occurs when a pregnant woman absorbs a few cells from her fetus. The opposite may also happen, where a fetus absorbs a few cells from its mother.

These cells may travel into the mother’s or fetus’s bloodstream and migrate to different organs. They may remain in a mother’s body or a child’s body for a decade or more following childbirth. This condition is called microchimerism.

www.healthline.com/health/chimerism#causes

And this thread