What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

And btw a trans girl isn’t living their life as one of the girls, they’re living their life ruining other girls sense of safety, sense of security and ability to interact with their peers away from males. Trans people won’t be accepted in female only or male only spaces no matter how frequently this is rammed down our throats.

Also, I note the undercurrent of lesbophobia, which is really quite horrible

Absolutely!

And very strange indeed.......there seems to be a real nub of total disconnect.

So you were just like those tomboy trans girls in the link above. Nothing wrong with that

Lmao yeah just the same until they hit puberty. Then you know straight up that biology matters and you can’t control it, try as you might.

Sad that adults keep lying to them.

In my experience, there are no issues with straight and lesbian women sharing spaces.

Which is all the more reason to ditch Toxic Masculinity rather than force everyone to pretend that the longing to be treated warmly and kindly means you are a girl (and therefore need surgery to cut away your masculine parts)

I'm not disagreeing with you. Gender stereotyping and expectations are the problem.

I literally, and I mean literally have never heard a woman be concerned about lesbians in single sex spaces.
It's almost as if they understand what it's like to be woman and don't ogle in changing room...

Why do we separate children (and adults) when undressing?

Is it because some share interests and some don't?

Is it because their bodies are different?

Why does a young gay lad, who may play with dolls not change with the girls?

Why do children who have friends of the opposite sex have to accept some of those male friends in their changing rooms but not others? Because Child A likes dolls and princesses and Child B likes toy guns and Xbox?

@CharlieParley

OP linked an article at 18:24 on page 2, denying any connection between a (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour saying:

No, it doesn't. Gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things, which is why some trans girls are tomboys.

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

For anyone who'd like to read the actual study, there is a link to a PDF version on this page

As seems to be the case with other references posted by the OP in evidence, this study does not deny a connection between (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour, let alone disprove it. On the contrary, it emphasises the connection, finding a strong adoption of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex in the vast majority of the transgender group.

(I should add that gendered behaviour is only one aspect of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed on us - and measured in the study - preferences for one peer group over the other, and for the toys and clothing as well as for the hobbies and interests associated with each sex also play a role).

FWIW, tomboy refers to quite a specific type of girl, and that word does not mean a such a girl does not conform to the stereotypes society imposes on females in other ways. The existence of some male transgender children who engage in some masculine pursuits therefore does not disprove the connection drawn by the doctrine of gender identity (and trans rights organisations as well as campaigners) between transgender identity and gendered behaviour. Especially since these children typically do indeed embody other opposite-sex stereotypes.

(In my view that study, while interesting, has a number of shortcomings and it's also odd in a number of ways, not least of which is that it builds up strawmen to examine and then happily knocks them down. What that is supposed to prove I do not know. But read it for yourself if you like. At least now we all can.)

Time to produce the link showing that some trans girls are tomboys again I think: You need to pick your sources with more care OP Why have you not linked the actual study? You've linked a journalists interpretation of it. If you took the time to read your own thread you'll see a pp (quoted above) kindly linked you the original paper

Reading it, yet again shows that it always pays to go to the source rather than rely on a lazy misinterpretation
As the quoted poster says, if anything it reinforces the notion of trans children adopting gender stereotypes but it is very muddled.

Personally I found the point that it made no difference at what age a child transitions most interesting, and running counter to the common narrative of permanent and ongoing harm by delaying transitioning.
But due to the questionable methodology in the study I'd never use this point to support any arguments as it's easily disputed

@Timestablesaretables I think you’re on to something there.... but surely it can’t be that they’re biological women themselves and have lived the life of a biological woman and know damn fine what it’s like to be harassed and abused by men. Cause that makes way too much sense and completely decimates the trans argument, so it must not be true at all.

I'm not going to click on gender ideology propaganda.

No idea why it's been shared here.

I see that this film is called "I am a girl".

There is another film of the same name which features girls actually talking about their experience of being female. A film that gives girls a voice.

I would urge mumsnetters to watch the film that gives girls a voice.

That’s a small child.

What about the teenage girls suddenly presented with a six-foot, bass-voiced, newly ‘transitioned (ie exactly the same as last term) teenage male? Not a random hypothetical example, but my child’s school last year.

You are sadly correct that there seemed to be nothing the girls could do about it, but I’m baffled about why you think that’s a good thing.

documentaryaustralia.com.au/news/i-am-a-girl/

@Deliriumoftheendless

1. Because there has been a long and consistent history of sex based violence and sec based provisions are necessary to keep people safe.
2. No
3. Yes if you’re meaning separating children from the opposite sex (including adults of the opposite sex)
4. Because a young gay lad is still a lad regardless of what he plays with. Dolls don’t equal girls
5. No child should ever have to accept the opposite sex in their changing rooms/toilets/juvenile offenders housing etc. Ever.

I realise you most likely know the answers to all of your own questions, but I thought they’d be helpful for those that still don’t get it!

So far, nobody in the film has asked the girls confidentially what it's like to have a transgirl in their class. I think your title is misleading, OP, and pardon me for saying: it's not the transgirl's story to tell.
Call me back when you've asked Selina Soule what it's like.

what about the girls in the film who are not trans (if only we had a word for that)

We do have a word for that. The word is ‘girls’.

@ForeverBubblegum

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do?Nothing"

I'm actually grateful to the op for providing this link, because for me this one line really sums up why we're here. Young girls are been put into positions they're not comfortable with, and can do nothing. As parents and adults it's our responsibility to advocate for them.

It doesn't matter how many girls don't object, the 'younger girl' did. Maybe she's a survivor of abuse and has a trauma response which is triggered by been naked near a male bodied person. Maybe she knows her family will pull her out of education rather then let her change next to that child, destroying any chance she might of had of financial independence. Or maybe she doesn't have a backstory, and just feels uncomfortable because that's where her personal boundaries are, her boundaries are still important and need respecting, if she's made to go against her instincts in this, then why would she expect any of her boundaries to be respected in the future.

I'm not saying the needs of the trans child don't matter, of course they do, they just don't matter more then the needs of the other children. Perhaps the op can come back and engage in a discussion about how we could meet the needs of ALL the children, I'm sure they'll have some great suggestions.

Hi op, I've quoted my post from last night, because it's so easy to miss things when you return to a thread that's moved on. But I really would like to engage with you on this, as I really do believe that we could find solutions that work for everyone, if both sides could just discuss the issues openly.

So what do you think should be done to meet the needs of all the children? Personally I think a third space would be appropriate, it would respect the privacy of the trans girl (who as you say, is likely to be very self conscious), whilst also allowing vulnerable girls (as described above) can continue to access their single sex provision. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, and any alternative suggestions you have that you feel would better accommodate all the children's needs.

OP The overwhelming number of messages here are concerned about safeguarding children.
This is about how we protect children from present and future risk of harm. We're using the word children because the video you posted shows children.

If you're not responding to any of the reasonable questions or messages about safeguarding, that in itself is a serious concern. This is a board about the rights of women. Many of us here are parents and many of us are rightly concerned about your video.

@ForeverBubblegum third spaces have been repeatedly brought up as a solution to the trans problem, but trans women don’t want third spaces, they want female spaces. Have never come across a trans man that has rejected a third space though!

"Did anyone object in your school?"
"No, I was friends with all the girls in my year and that just left the younger girls. If any of them didn't like it, they were younger, what could they do about it? [laughs]"
So the opinion or concerns of anyone in a weaker position to the transperson doesn't matter?

So far, nobody in the film has asked the girls confidentially what it's like to have a transgirl in their class.

The girls weren't even asked openly, or in passing. Nobody's asked them a goddamn thing. They were just put on film like extras in a Marc Jacobs perfume ad to accessorise the transitioner's story.

That endocrine society link is a load of waffle isn’t it? Maybe, possibly, some small studies linked here.

I’ve scanned and searched the studies, you could boil that down to:

We all thought it was a MH condition.

We aren’t allowed to say that now so here are some not particularly robust studies showing some biological differences, that not all trans, or non trans people fit, oh and that actually could have been caused by early socialisation.

So we can say that we obviously don’t think it a MH issue now. Oh and we say this because we are in the USA and let’s talk about insurance and why they should cover it so we can make lots of lovely $$$ mitigating children in the name of progress.

I mean FFS linking the medical profession that had the most to gain from hormone therapy and calling it empirical neutral evidence.

Just. Try harder. Maybe the plastic surgery profession next, they are believable too