What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

@Waitwhat23

OP, you still haven't addressed (despite many requests from previous posters) the quote from the film many have expressed concern about - '

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing"

You must see the power imbalance and unfairness of this statement? Do other children's feelings just not matter?

No other children in the school have a right to prevent a trans girl living her life as one of the girls. Similarly, the straight girls have no right to keep the lesbians out of their spaces.

If any girl behaves in an inappropriate manner in any other those spaces, then there should be protocols in place to deal with it.

@Lovemusic33

I’m so glad all this sh*t wasn’t around when I was a kid, though there were trans people it wasn’t put into young children’s heads like it is now, if it was then I would have probably been labelled as trans. I hung around with the boys, I played with cars, toy guns and my bmx. I hated Barbies and wearing dresses, I had grazed knees and climbed trees, I am 100% female, I just prefer the company of boys (now men) and am not into fashion/hair/make up. Kids should be able to chose what they want to play with, what they want to wear without being labelled as trans etc..

So you were just like those tomboy trans girls in the link above. Nothing wrong with that.

toy guns

Does anyone else remember those cap-guns with the roll of red paper and the black gunpowder dots?

They were way cool, especially if you tore them up, stacked the black dots, and hit them with a rock.

I couldn’t read that “study” about trans-girl tomboys. I couldn’t get past this -

scientists recruited 317 3 to 12-year-old transgender children

The transgender participants had socially transitioned, meaning they were living as the gender they identify with rather than what they were assigned at birth.

3 year olds, identifying and socially transitioning to live as a certain gender, right .

Nope, that’s alllllll the parents.

But what about the rights of the "other" girls to feel safe? Or the girls from religious communities who aren't allowed to undress in front of males? Or do they not matter? Stupid question. Of course they don't. They just have to "be kind"

Male and female children can play happily together, why wouldn't they?
I'm not sure what point you are pushing
A male child doesn't become female by playing with barbies or hanging around with girls. It does mean that the girls no longer have a single sex space if males are in changing rooms

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing"

Time to produce the link showing that some trans girls are tomboys again I think:

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

what frame of reference could the three year olds mentioned in the article use to determine that they are trans?

Yep! Outrageous isn't it @KitchenFairy?

So you were just like those tomboy trans girls in the link above. I was a tomboy too. Used a masculine verson of my name, preferred cars, bikes and boxing to anything remotely feminine.

What is the similarity you are suggesting? I wasn't/am not trans - unless you insist on the Stonewall umbrella defintion that makes the whole bloody world trans!

I was a tomboy.
My parents frequently told me I should have been born a boy because I was the eldest, they would have transed me in a heartbeat.
They were abusive. this is one of the ways they abused me.

I was not trans. Don't you dare label me.

This video (what little I watched anyway) has made me cross.

It’s not about how other children see trans girls. It’s all about them.

“Who would object?”

Well I would. If my daughter was feeling uncomfortable sharing a space with a male body, even if it was a trans girl, I would request a private space for her. I bet if it worked, other parents would do the same.

A woman/girl has a right to privacy. Has a right to be able to change in a single sex space. To be able to go to the toilet and change sanitary wear in a single sex space

Has a right to be in the hospital, hostel, jail space in a single sex space.

A male body person does not have the rights to trump that

OK shizuku I'm going now, but I have concluded from your inability to clarify your words, that you don't know whether sex can be changed by performing or not performing gender stereotypes, and you don't know what 'gender identity matching sex' means despite using that term.

Not sure you're going to persuade many people how to think when there is so much you don't know, but do try to keep respectful while you try.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

Thank you OP for engaging in the discussion in a more civil manner than the previous thread.

I do actually feel very sorry for Paris Lees, that must have been a difficult childhood and no wonder she hated being forced to do things she didn't enjoy.

Could you comment on a previous poster's point about Muslim girls? They cannot have male bodied children in their spaces. This is about sex, not gender. Muslim girls already find it very hard to engage in wider society due to religious pressure. What would you say is the solution here? Trans girls cannot be accommodated here in the girls' facilities alongside Muslim girls.

I am happy to accept that trans girls shouldn't be made to change with boys, I can understand that would be distressing. Just as I appreciate trans women shouldn't be housed in the male estate. But the answer, as with prisons, cannot be to accommodate them with girls to the disadvantage of these girls.

I am very clearly not in any way implying that trans girls are monsters or any other hyperbole you wish to throw. I accept they can't change with boys but equally, they can't be with girls. That is a space for females, hormones are irrelevant here, it is about sexed bodies and the right to separate sexed spaces. I don't understand why you feel girls have no right to that even if some in the video you posted are ostensibly accepting of it. There others that cannot and will not be and their rights matter too.

@Shizuku seeing as you're back OP, I'm genuinely interested to know your thoughts on this

'Similarly, the straight girls have no right to keep the lesbians out of their spaces.

If any girl behaves in an inappropriate manner in any other those spaces, then there should be protocols in place to deal with it.'

Those pesky lesbians! Yes, we're always banging on about women behaving inappropriately towards us in our private spaces. Thread after thread talking about it...

What a bizarre bit of deflection.

So you're saying the women have to submit to people with a penis being in their spaces and if they object, then they are in the wrong?
And just to be clear, I don't think anyone is saying that the trans girl in that video was any danger to the girls, but if you allow one person with a penis into a women's space, then you allow them all.

No other children in the school have a right to prevent a trans girl living her life as one of the girls. Similarly, the straight girls have no right to keep the lesbians out of their spaces.

This is homophobic. Lesbians are female. Straight girls are female. "Trans girls" are not. Most female people want female only spaces when they need privacy, such as in a changing room. It's a false equivalence intended to smear.

I don't know what the situation is like in the Netherlands where this film appears to have been made but in the UK, there are single sex exemptions to the Equality Act 2010 which means that toilets (unless set up in a very specific layout) should be single sex. There seems to be huge efforts by certain groups to obsure this fact but it is a fact.

Why on earth have you mentioned lesbians in your reply? You do realise that lesbians are female so perfectly entitled to access those single sex spaces?

Toilets and other spaces such as changing rooms etc

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing”

“... younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing”

“...but what could she do? Nothing"

I’ll just leave this here.

I think that some young boys, when presented with expectations that they should be tough and 'masculine', do fantasise about what it would be like to be a girl. They see that girls are treated more 'gently', that they are permitted to cry ( I'd say even 'encouraged' to cry some times) and that people are kinder to them in certain ways.

Grayson Perry, the famous, cross dressing potter, in his biography recalls how his cross dressing tendencies started at around the age of 4 years old. He vividly recalls that he wanted to be treated 'like a four year old girl'. this is why his most well known persona is 'Claire'. a four year old girl.

His parens were divorced, and his step-father was violent. He also nurtured a teddy which he named 'Alan Measles'. Alan Measles was also a stand in for other aspects of his own nature.

No other children in the school have a right to prevent a trans girl living her life as one of the girls. Similarly, the straight girls have no right to keep the lesbians out of their spaces

If any girl behaves in an inappropriate manner in any other those spaces, then there should be protocols in place to deal with it.

Just own it- you think the trans identified child’s wishes or perceived rights outweigh the girls wishes, rights or even comfort. You’re arguing that female children don’t have the right to same sex changing at a time when they are incredibly self conscious about their developing bodies, may be dealing already with unwanted sexual attention or abuse, and find some small comfort in only being around other girls with the same bodies and the same issues. They’re not permitted to want that.

Also, I note the undercurrent of lesbophobia, which is really quite horrible.

Bunbury, everyone. WWGD?

And this.

My personal take from that video is that poor child has suffered a total failure of parenting and care.

The child seems a normal child. With all the limitations that is a human childhood. Limited perspective, empathy, conceptualisation, understanding, knowledge.

Puberty blockers might prevent them from ever achieving physiological adult maturity but we know that time passes. It's likely that some steps to adult mental development will take place. God help them then because I'm not sure anyone else will be able to.

I don't know how this can ever be seen as more than a grotesque abuse of children. Preventing humans from reaching adult maturity is a humans rights abuse.

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing

That stood out to me, too. The entitlement in one so young, who wants to be 'one of the girls' but also wants to ride roughshod over the concerns of some.

No other children in the school have a right to prevent a trans girl living her life as one of the girls

It's back to the pronouns and mangling of language. 'This person just wants to share spaces and changing rooms with the other girls and they don't want her there. How mean'

Compare to

This (male / boy) person just wants to share spaces and changing rooms with the girls and they don't want him there.'

Let's respect their boundaries and their right to a single SEX space and try to accommodate the wishes of the gender incongruent child in a third space so that they neither feel uncomfortable changing with members of their own sex, nor make members of the opposite sex feel uncomfortable in what should be a single sex space. Everyone's rights to privacy and dignity respected. Nobodies rights to privacy and dignity ignored.

There is a difference between WANTS and RIGHTS, isn't there?