What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

My experience as an autistic girl who didn't realise I was same sex attracted until my mid twenties is that it's the same for some women too. That's not to say that some people won't persist and grow up to be trans but many won't. The issue is that, as children, we can't tell the difference.

Personally I don't think passing better for one group is worth the risk of losing future fertility and sexual function for all and causing totally unnecessary and irreversible changes for the group that wouldn't have persisted into adulthood. The risk of future harm is too high.

@SJaneS49

Thanks but no I’m not going to engage in any kind of debate with you. I personally find many of the transphobic comments on here and in this section in general (and it is a mania, just take a look at the sheer number of posts on the subject) completely unacceptable. They most certainly do not reflect my views or concerns in terms of the rights of women and the struggles we have to contend with in 2921. I can only imagine what my political 26 year old LGBT daughter & her friends would make of this section, nothing positive I’m sure. Luckily, they are the future.

Please do not bother addressing any further comments at or to me as they will not be read.

Early twenties here - younger than your daughter - and thoroughly disagree with you, as do most women I know, straight, lesbian, bisexual or otherwise. I'm not sure what your daughter being 'lgbt' has to do with this. This is about women and females and their spaces and rights, not about sexuality. Glad to know I am the future and can make sure children like mine are not convinced by lies that oppose the science!

What depressing viewing. This child is having something injected into them to stop normal puberty taking place. Then is talking about hormones at 16. Where are the parents? What are they thinking? How sad that a boy can’t play with dolls without thinking they must be a girl. There’s no way I’d be happy to have a boy in my daughters changing room. This is so fucked up.

Adults are massively failing this child. I feel very sorry for the child.

'At the end Joppe says that their future husband wouldn't be able to tell that they were trans by looking at their body'

Why are these children being told this?

The risk of future harm is too high.

I find this phrase interesting. And true. By the time children have realised/decided that they aren't trans, it's too late.
And yet no one is intervening on the basis of "risk of future harm" which is odd.

Because when I had SS involvement with my DC (long story. Not relevant here) they cited "possible risk of future harm" as a reason for their involvement. But where are they now with the trans children? Why aren't they stepping in with their "risk of future harm?"

The usual ‘I played with Barbies and liked to wear my hair long’ tropes being repeated by this child, I note. The script is always the same and relies on such hokey notions of what girls and boys do.

I guess I’d better book my 6 year old into the gender clinic immediately then because she hates Barbies, has no interest in dolls and the dolls house she got off her granny when she turned 4 has been gathering dust ever since. Clearly she is not really a girl...

This board is excellent, and has brought together really clever woman who’ve thought through and researched these issues thoroughly. I’ve learnt so much being on FWR during the last year.

Threads like these are just exhausting though. Shouldn’t we just ignore these types of OPs, and get on with the business in hand? Do we ever win anything?

It’s always the same old.....OP brings up seahorses and other pseudo-science bs. With a sprinkling of “wrong side of history”. PPs on FWP can disprove the jargon with their eyes closed, I mean really seriously intelligent arguments being made. OP drones on and doesn’t change their tune.

Isn’t it a case of “don’t wrestle with pigs; you’ll both get covered in mud but the pig likes it”?

Did @Shizuku explain what a gender identity is yet? He just seems to have waffled about it with no actual definition.

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do?Nothing"

Can’t be pointed out enough actually.

Maybe if we post it enough, the chilling effect will get through to those who have supported this video as an example of how the younger generation ‘get it’ and are the future.

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do?Nothing"

Do you not see how the younger generation are going to be holding decision makers accountable for safeguarding lapses?

Actually, this quite accurately reflects what I remember about having a trans girl in my group of friends at school 25 years ago.

I don't think it accurately reflects the toxic TRA ideology that exists now.

LGB. That's what the acronym used to be. All about sexual attraction between people who are the same sex. T sits at odds to this as it has nothing to do with same sex attraction. Stonewall used to be LGB. I can't stand being lumped in with LGBT as the T activists are homophobic and in.particular trying to erase lesbians.

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do?Nothing"

This is so plainly the real message in this video. Is that what posters have been trying to tell us over this week? A week when we have all been talking about how powerless we feel in the face of a society where violence against women and girls?

Is this the message that posters are trying to convey?

That yet again female’s discomfort, fear because they have suffered abuse, or simply fear because they know they could not defend themselves or simply their embarrassment and confusion at the changes in their body, are meaningless to those who feel that their right’s take priority from such a young age?

"but what could she do?Nothing"

On other threads we are also being told how a group of people, who are using this as an opportunity to protest and elevate males who have raped and murder as victims, are righteous! The poster saying how great the group are, cannot see how discordant the message is to women. And doesn’t accept that as soon as women hear that the group has elevated the males who rape and murder women and children, they will have the same visceral reaction we have.

And yet that statement of fact that the subject of the video makes, evokes the same visceral reaction in me.

Chilling indeed.

Not sure it was what the OP intended.

@PutItInNeutral

This board is excellent, and has brought together really clever woman who’ve thought through and researched these issues thoroughly. I’ve learnt so much being on FWR during the last year.

Threads like these are just exhausting though. Shouldn’t we just ignore these types of OPs, and get on with the business in hand? Do we ever win anything?

It’s always the same old.....OP brings up seahorses and other pseudo-science bs. With a sprinkling of “wrong side of history”. PPs on FWP can disprove the jargon with their eyes closed, I mean really seriously intelligent arguments being made. OP drones on and doesn’t change their tune.

Isn’t it a case of “don’t wrestle with pigs; you’ll both get covered in mud but the pig likes it”?

There will always be people new to the debate that, like yourself, read and learn. So many people are ignorant to the harm that is being done to children right now. I think the TRAs need to come up with more original, thoughtful, cohesive explanations now because all they are doing is repeating the phrases they have been taught without actually examining what they are saying.

Threads like this one can be so useful in that respect.

I agree, wonderful points made by very clever women.

This comes back to safeguarding, for the child in the film (lied to by omission of long term health implications) and all the girls' feelings and rights he ignores.

I believe the Dutch protocols that would have been merrily being used at the time of the film have been severely called into question by the medical community.

@SJaneS49 what a strange generalisation to make about 20-30 year old, and LGBT women.
I know people would like you to believe everyone here is straight, white, middle class and middle aged but that isn't true at all.
I'm 29 LGB and mixed race and I probably don't share many views with your daughter, so I'm not sure why her age or sexual orientation is relevant.

I believe the Dutch protocols that would have been merrily being used at the time of the film have been severely called into question by the medical community.

Including Dr Steensma, one of the authors, himself.

@joystir59

LGB. That's what the acronym used to be. All about sexual attraction between people who are the same sex. T sits at odds to this as it has nothing to do with same sex attraction. Stonewall used to be LGB. I can't stand being lumped in with LGBT as the T activists are homophobic and in.particular trying to erase lesbians.

My 14 year old DS agrees with you. He refers to himself as being LGB.

@NiceGerbil

'At the end Joppe says that their future husband wouldn't be able to tell that they were trans by looking at their body'

Why are these children being told this?

I find this absolutely heartbreaking.

Children tend to be quite literal and view things in a black and white way. The fact that adults have told this child that they can have a husband (just like the girls) and that husband will not be able to tell the difference between them and a biological girl is so wrong.

Unless Joppe finds a boyfriend who has never been with a girl and is not very observant it is very unlikely that they won’t be able to tell upfront. Then you negotiate the obvious issues of ‘potential’ heterosexual partner not wanting a same sex partner except that they might not want to spell out the reason and Joppe will think it is down to transphobia or a personal issue with Joppe. The issue of future children is also being misrepresented to Joppe as finding a surrogate is a difficult process.

Joppe’s dating pool is extremely narrow but Joppe won’t understand that until it is too late.

@NiceGerbil

'At the end Joppe says that their future husband wouldn't be able to tell that they were trans by looking at their body'

Why are these children being told this?

Exactly as it isn’t true. A surgically vulva and vagina has to be maintained daily and takes a lot of surgery - it isn’t simple. What happens if the trans girl gets prostate cancer or other male cancers as they will still have some male hormones. Very sad that children are being lied to.

The “you’re old and will soon be swept away by younger, prettier, more desirable women with more fashionable opinions” insult is such classic misogyny, isn’t it? As women age and our value and f*ckability diminishes, we’re supposed to quietly fade away, and if we’re still in MILF territory, we’re just supposed to be terrified of the future and keep our rapidly wrinkling lips sealed. Men are not treated in the same way. The good thing is that once you see this rhetorical strategy for what it is, it’s quite easy to shrug off.

As for the subject of the thread, it is sad when children are fed dishonest propaganda. You still can’t change someone’s sex, no matter how much publicity material you produce.

Girls are girls because of the body they are born into. They are treated a certain way because of the body they are born into. Children are too young to under that accepting fantasy as fact can have real life problems. Children can also have a hard time distinguishing reality from fantasy.

Why are some insisting that children are the authority on things that should be left to adults? Are we working to redefine what a child is now?

@Daca

The “you’re old and will soon be swept away by younger, prettier, more desirable women with more fashionable opinions” insult is such classic misogyny, isn’t it? As women age and our value and f*ckability diminishes, we’re supposed to quietly fade away, and if we’re still in MILF territory, we’re just supposed to be terrified of the future and keep our rapidly wrinkling lips sealed. Men are not treated in the same way. The good thing is that once you see this rhetorical strategy for what it is, it’s quite easy to shrug off.

As for the subject of the thread, it is sad when children are fed dishonest propaganda. You still can’t change someone’s sex, no matter how much publicity material you produce.

And they forget that young women grow up.

I feel so very sorry for this generation of children who are being pushed by the adults who are supposed to be safeguarding them into thinking they has been born in the wrong body. The backlash once ordinary people know what is happening will be huge. And the people pushing this narrative will be held accountable.

And they forget that young women grow up.

Yes. Those "So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing" younger girls will also grow up.......

OP why do you agree wi to lying to children about their bodies? What do you get out of it? Because clearly there is an agenda here and it isn’t about safeguarding children.