What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

@persistentwoman

There's a real difference between propaganda films and how schools enable and negotiate the feelings, wishes and hopes of all children. Some children who believe they're the opposite sex are very popular with their peers - and some are not. Schools try to manage this with varying levels of success. What schools are now realising is that the adult groups who use children (as in the the Observer quote above) "as pawns to be deployed in adult debates about identity" are counter productive. Working in a secondary school with a predominantly Muslim population and a boy of 13 deciding he wanted to identify as a girl, there was no question of mixed sex changing, showering or sleeping accommodation on residentials. The school understood that girls weren't there to provide validation for this teenager. And that were this to be imposed, the girls would be horrified and the community outrage would be immense. Third spaces were employed with the needs of all children being respected. The only way of ensuring that healthy and respectful peer relationships are maintained is to ensure that the rights and boundaries of all children are respected and not just the demands of one child.

I wonder if mothers who are confronted with "transgirls" identifying into their daughters' changing-rooms, could identify as Muslim and get their daughters' privacy respected?

Phyllis

I think calling this child a transgirl is concerning. The older transgender people that op mentioned reporting that they felt that they were different as children are the minority whose dysphoria persisted.

The vast majority of children that feel at odds with themselves or socially during childhood will desist from having this feeling and settle into their body and grow up to be adults happy with their sexed body.

The people that op refer to are the tiny proportion of children (estimated at 10-20%) that don't desist from having these feelings. They are then looking back at their lives and projecting those feelings forward as as possible solution for how they feel now.

I have heard the phrase 'when I got over my internal transphobia, I realised what all those feelings meant' on a number of occasions. This implies to me that as children they had unspecified feelings of dissatisfaction with themselves and as they have grown up, they have been given the prism of transgender with which to view their childhood and make sense of those feelings. This isn't the same as there being 'trans' children.

We seem to see the same stories repeated in the case of young boys - they seem to have had a father who objects to them choosing 'girly' toys and clothes. The child would like approval of the father and for whatever reason decides that they must be a girl because they like 'girl' stuff.

It is not sensible to treat all children as if they are part of this tiny minority with a persistent dysphoria - most children are likely to desist as they grow up.

Children don't have the capacity to understand the implications of social or medical transition - and the court has confirmed that. Some adults don't seem to understand the implications of this and even seem to believe that humans can change sex.

Children rely on adults to prevent them from doing things that will harm them physically and emotionally. Allowing a child to think that the solution to their problems involve having major surgery and taking strong medication for a lifetime and that many people hate them and wish them dead is not kind.

Adults need to step up and be adults in this.

That quote about there being nothing the younger girls could do - chilling!

@SourMilkGhyll

That quote about there being nothing the younger girls could do - chilling!

Very. So much wrong right there.

So boys can play with barbies and it doesn't mean they aren't boys, but if a boy plays with barbies it means he's a girl.

But it's not about gender stereotypes, but can only be explained in gender stereotypes.

Right, got it. I think.

I am deeply concerned about adults lying to children. Young children trust adults and believe everything they are told. (Look how easy it is to convince children there’s a Father Christmas, Tooth Fairy etc).
If young children are told that they are actually the opposite sex by all the responsible adults around them, they will believe it.
Then what happens at puberty when the body betrays the lie? It’s not surprising so many trans teenagers have such poor mental health. They’ve been thoroughly let down by the adults in their lives.

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

So, a boy likes to play Barbies, wear dresses and wear wigs and that means.... He's actually a girl?

Well, that's not sexist at all is it?

Quite who’d have thought 20 years ago that Barbie was more important than chromosomes

I still have questions, but the hit and run OP has run.

"So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do?Nothing"

I'm actually grateful to the op for providing this link, because for me this one line really sums up why we're here. Young girls are been put into positions they're not comfortable with, and can do nothing. As parents and adults it's our responsibility to advocate for them.

It doesn't matter how many girls don't object, the 'younger girl' did. Maybe she's a survivor of abuse and has a trauma response which is triggered by been naked near a male bodied person. Maybe she knows her family will pull her out of education rather then let her change next to that child, destroying any chance she might of had of financial independence. Or maybe she doesn't have a backstory, and just feels uncomfortable because that's where her personal boundaries are, her boundaries are still important and need respecting, if she's made to go against her instincts in this, then why would she expect any of her boundaries to be respected in the future.

I'm not saying the needs of the trans child don't matter, of course they do, they just don't matter more then the needs of the other children. Perhaps the op can come back and engage in a discussion about how we could meet the needs of ALL the children, I'm sure they'll have some great suggestions.

Well, a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy

OP, a transgirl is male, otherwise they would be a girl! You would preface this with cis, which had your other thread deleted.
But you understand the difference between girls and transgirls; that is to say, you understand biological sex, so don’t pretend otherwise. Joppe (in the film) understands they were born a boy. They understand they want a female body and they have to halt their own (male) puberty and go on cross sex hormones to replicate some of 5he process of female puberty.

Joppe understands this at 13 years old, don’t pretend you don’t understand likewise.

I was really pleased to see Joppe discussing with their friend that the boy they liked should know fairly quickly that Joppe was trans; that this should not be concealed. Given that some TRAs believe this should be concealed, Joppe’s belief that romantic partners have an informed choice was refreshing.
I only wish Joppe and the adults in school extended this choice to female peers. Joppe was the ‘tallest girl in the (primary) school’ and if younger girls objected to Joppe’s presence (in changing facilities) “what could they do about it?” These younger girls could be starting puberty. Or they may just not want boys there. What could they do about it? Joppe doesn’t know, so how could these younger girls?

It took less than two minutes of film for Joppe to directly link their gender identity to sex stereotypes.
“I was born a boy but I’m certain I am a girl. I played with Barbies and wore dresses rather than trousers. And I liked to wear wigs.”

So we have a male child who understands sex better than OP, directly linking their gender identity to sex stereotypes, acknowledging that younger females have no recourse if they object to sharing changing facilities with them. Really OP, what do you think you achieved here?

Maybe the OP didn't expect anyone to actually watch it?

I understand that MN is allowing leeway here, but this poster seems to be a tad Teflon!

I'm still on page three and I agree with CuriousaboutSamphire here.

I also agree with teawamutu that Bunbury would have wise words.

I'm a little tired of contorting myself to avoid deletion whilst a clearly goady OP is allowed leeway.

I’ve come back - I still can’t get over this line
“Who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could they do?”
I’m struggling to find words. I think it’s callous? Definitely not inclusive. Smugness? Defiant? Greed? Shocking disregard of others needs.
I want to live in a world where everyone is equal and safe and cared for - not this.

So OP posts a short film on what it is really like for girls when one of their classmates is a transgirl. And the answer appears to be that the rights of girls to privacy and dignity and safeguarding are ignored and overruled in favour of the transgirl.

I think we already knew this but unusual for TRAs to make this point.

It's also a classic case of the parents objecting to their DS being gender nonconforming so deciding he was their DD instead

OP linked an article at 18:24 on page 2, denying any connection between a (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour saying:

No, it doesn't. Gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things, which is why some trans girls are tomboys.

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

For anyone who'd like to read the actual study, there is a link to a PDF version on this page

As seems to be the case with other references posted by the OP in evidence, this study does not deny a connection between (trans)gender identity and gendered behaviour, let alone disprove it. On the contrary, it emphasises the connection, finding a strong adoption of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex in the vast majority of the transgender group.

(I should add that gendered behaviour is only one aspect of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed on us - and measured in the study - preferences for one peer group over the other, and for the toys and clothing as well as for the hobbies and interests associated with each sex also play a role).

FWIW, tomboy refers to quite a specific type of girl, and that word does not mean a such a girl does not conform to the stereotypes society imposes on females in other ways. The existence of some male transgender children who engage in some masculine pursuits therefore does not disprove the connection drawn by the doctrine of gender identity (and trans rights organisations as well as campaigners) between transgender identity and gendered behaviour. Especially since these children typically do indeed embody other opposite-sex stereotypes.

(In my view that study, while interesting, has a number of shortcomings and it's also odd in a number of ways, not least of which is that it builds up strawmen to examine and then happily knocks them down. What that is supposed to prove I do not know. But read it for yourself if you like. At least now we all can.)

Oh I wrote a post earlier and it didn't post.

I watched the first bit then skimmed.

Starts with soft lighting twigs n stuff and then the kid is there looking ? not sure it's a bit like one of those perfume ads.

Then they seem to be stalking a boy? That's not great!

Then I skimmed and every time I stopped it was all about how the kid fancied the boy.

IMO and I know kids get serious crushes but it seemed like a strange thing to focus on so much. Also felt like the focus of the thing was this boy who wasn't even there!

Like I say I skimmed so maybe missed stuff.

Bit meh from my perspective.

I have a DD about that age and don't think I'd be keen on her getting the message that it's all about fancying boys going out with boys, boys, boys, boys!

I've watched the whole thing. It was shot in 2010. So 'Joppe' would be in their 20s now. I've been Googling to see whether they grew up to become a trans woman or not but I haven't managed to find out. I would be interested to know whether their dysphoria persisted.

I thought the end was sad when Joppe was talking about the reality of not being able to have children. At least they were aware of it, unlike a documentary I once watched about The Tavistock where a child was talking about growing up and having children via womb transplant as if it were the easiest thing in the world.

Not sure how the OP is expecting me to react. I see a child that might grow up to become a trans adult or might not. I'm not horrified or sickened or anything else. A lot of us on the feminist chat boards are pretty open minded. Still think it's important to safeguard children of all sexes.

Why can't Joppe have children? From the bits I saw it seemed they hadnt had physical treatment.

@Toseland

I’ve come back - I still can’t get over this line “Who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could they do?” I’m struggling to find words. I think it’s callous? Definitely not inclusive. Smugness? Defiant? Greed? Shocking disregard of others needs. I want to live in a world where everyone is equal and safe and cared for - not this.

Joppe seems like a very nice child and I don’t consider for a second they’re a threat to other children. That “but what could they do?” can be uttered from a nice male child, only shows the misogyny in society. That a nice male child could be so dismissive of their younger female peers, does not instill confidence. I really think this video has backfired on OP.

Have you watched the whole thing?

At the end Joppe says that their future husband wouldn't be able to tell that they were trans by looking at their body but they won't be able to have children and that would be the only difference.

They would consider a surrogate but that the child wouldn't be biologically related.

In the film, Joppe talks about being on puberty blockers and planning to have sex reassignment surgery. This was in 2010. All the blurb suggests they were around 13.

If Joppe didn't go through male puberty then I would imagine freezing sperm wasn't an option. Joppe is attracted to males so even with frozen sperm that doesn't help them have biological children with a male partner.

Want to know any more then watch it.

I love it when a TRA comes on here to educate us and gets their arse served to them on a plate.
They all inevitably fuck off when they realise they’re just not a match.

We’re already educated and you’re wrong.
HTH

Just my experience but back in the day effeminate boys would take several years possibly after experimenting to become comfortable with their sexuality, and mature into effeminate gay men.

Now it seems to be a rush to stop young children maturing naturally into their bodies and before they understand their sexuality. They are being rushed into transitioning because barbie dolls social media, homophobia or grooming.

I feel really sad that we are raising a generation of children that could hate us for doing this to them.

Anyone else think that now this child's dismissal of the rights of girls has come to light MN will decide to delete the thread after all?