Help me respond to a captured hospital please!

[timeforsheroes]

I've nc'd because I made the FOI request in my own name, and these people are also my employer

i asked for the EIAs on 'supporting gender transitioning at work' and 'transgender care' i.e. staff policy and patient policy. I asked what considerations were given to the PCs of sex and religion. I asked who was consulted re these documents, and what was done to ensure all stakeholders were consulted before the documents were approved.

This is the abridged reply: Relevant stakeholders were consulted, involving Trans staff, Encompass network and [local LGBT charity]. These documents were also discussed with management and staff side representatives.

The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic. We have a duty to protect transgender patients and staff from discrimination harassment and victimisation and promote good relations between protected groups. We provide Trans Awareness training for staff to promote understanding to support implementation of these guidance documents.

Trans members of the LGBT+ staff network were invited to comment and consult on the documents by open invitation- to all staff on LGBT+ staff network circulation list were contacted

Both EIA checklist gender but not sex, and have 'positive' against gender reassignment and gender, and 'n/a' against all the other PCs. the patient policy EIA includes this gem:

If there is a negative impact on any of the groups, are you able to justify it, if so how? The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure.

i feel like I've been punched. This is my employer. And the hospital I and my DC and my mum would be taken to if we get ill. Please help me to respond, I'm so gutted they approved this crap, and replied like this, I can't think straight.

I think asking the question in that poll - whether people agree or disagree TWAW and TMAM - is very different to asking women if they’d want a TW in the bed next to them at hospital or changing at the swimming pool next to them.

Also, not to be picky, but that poll is from last summer. I personally think views have changed since then. Not least because of the very sad and distressing events of this week. And the FPFW ONS case.

Evarish, even looking at your poll the majority of the public do not agree that TWAW. Also, even if 51% agreed are you happy making the remaining 49% potentially scared/uncomfortable? Do you have any sympathy?

Anyway, I think that poll is a bit useless because the question is so vague. This yougov one is much better:
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
Public opinion changes massively when they understand that we are talking about transwomen who still retain a penis (as the vast majority do).

Also, it's not transphobic to believe that transwomen are men. I'm polite to the transwomen that I know, but I don't consider them to be really women. Insisting that I am transphobic unless I sign up to this belief system would be like a Muslim claiming that people are Islamophobic if they don't believe in Allah and pray 5 times a day etc.

That is utterly appalling

Orwellian / Kafkaesque, bleakly disturbing and nightmarinsh

On the bright side it can be used at some future time in a comedy podcast

Hospital wards are normally single sex facilities. Transwomen are male so why would it be acceptable for them to be in a female ward? If there is a problem for them on male wards then third space facilities should be lobbied for.

Will that poll question give the same result if it is explained that a transwoman is a man who identifies as a woman but may not have made any physical changes to his appearance, had any surgery or taken any hormones and possibly not even changed his hair or clothing from typically masculine styles? Or even if it just points out that over 90% retain their penis. And that agreeing with this statement would include them getting changed with your teenage daughter in communual changing rooms?

Why would you think a transman with a gynae problem should go on a male ward? Or treat a transwoman with prostrate issue as if they are female? Pretending sex does not matter is not being nice, it is downright dangerous.

Evarish is not presenting the full story of that poll. Extremely disingenuous. When the participants were asked about male people who had not had gender reassignment surgery (ie still had penises) the results are rather different.

Consistently when a poll is transparent about what a "trans woman" actually is people of both sexes say they should not be in women's spaces like toilets and changing rooms, so I'm pretty sure that would extend to other spaces where women are vulnerable.

Polls including this one also show there is little public support for legal self ID of gender (sex). And that people don't think males should be in women's sports.

Someone who looks at polls instead of exclusively listening to transphobic echo chambers.

Clearly you don't look at them very closely.

It is perfectly possible to find other solutions that would meet and equally respect all needs and intersectionalities.

Seeing the only possible solution as simply trampling and excluding female people whose needs don't fit, deaf to their voices and regardless of the harms and hostility towards them, is hardly kind, inclusive, progressive or even basically ethical. It also makes the case that for some behind this political lobby the aim is quite obviously less about finding additional and more varied, diverse provisions for those who need them, or genuinely caring about kindness or intersectionality or listening to people's voices and experiences, than the simple pleasure of seeing female people subordinated.

Will that poll question give the same result if it is explained that a transwoman is a man who identifies as a woman but may not have made any physical changes to his appearance, had any surgery or taken any hormones and possibly not even changed his hair or clothing from typically masculine styles? Or even if it just points out that over 90% retain their penis. And that agreeing with this statement would include them getting changed with your teenage daughter in communual changing rooms?

They did ask this. They didn't point out that it applied to the majority of MTF trans people, but we can take it that when the participants learned that they are not so keen to live and let live.

Consistently U.K. polling has shown that people are happy to accept gender identity up until the point it might become a problem.

So yes people can identify as what they like

No to intact biologically male people in women's spaces
No to biologically male people in women's sport
No to legal sex self ID without medical involvement (ie the proposed changes to the GRA)

Just as an aside I don’t like the disregard of religious groups. Religious people need health treatment too.

so little empathy.

Yes, so little empathy for women and girls at their most vulnerable.

Our hospital trusts policy allows people who identify as a woman on a part time basis to choose to be on a woman’s ward (they specifically mention that). They also mention that the wants of the trans people will take precedence over anyone else if there is a clash. They also don’t record putting a tw on a woman’s ward as a breach of the strict single sex accommodation policy (where all other breaches are recorded according to severity).

The is a good thread on it here which has links to the EIAs and a discussion of the issues with them. Apparently the Bristol/South West policies are currently under review.

A prominent member of the review board is a tw who has extremely questionable views towards women in their personal blog. They were involved in protesting the Women’s Place meeting in Bristol a couple of years ago.

I'd play dumb and start asking questions about medical treatment.

eg for pulmonary function tests you need the age, sex and race to get acurate predictions of normal.

Should the physiologist use the patient's sex as their lungs remain the size and efficiency of the sex, 'identified at birth' or should they use the trans person's gender ID.

The first would hurt the feelings of the trans person but the second could lead to a wrong diagnosis, usually in F to M trans people or worse not lead to a diagnosis that would be picked up using the sex identified at birth.

What about monitoring? Should trans women be called for mammograms and smear tests even though X-rays should be limited to strictly medically necessary exposure as they can cause cancer whilst the risk of breast cancer in ran women i at the same level a men.

For smear tests there is no cervix therefore no sample can be taken. Do you not call trans women at all, therefore discriminating against them compared to 'cis' women or do you 'go through the motions' if the latter how should you label the sample so the lab doesn't return it but does look for cancerous or precancerous cells.

Are the hospital funding a men's maternity ward? A trans man is not going to be comfortable surrounded by women.

Do you call trans men for prostate exams for the same reasons as smear tests?
etc
etc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3784009-Are-you-in-Devon-Bristol-North-Somerset-or-South-Gloucestershire-Tell-NHS-your-view-on-trans-guidelines-NOW

Oops forgot to paste link to thread.

Oh and another thought, if Karen White needed medical treatment which ward would Karen be on and would there be a risk assessement?

I work in this sort of field.

I am terrified that I might have to put my livelihood and reputation on the line one day to take a stand about this.

I never want to be a bystander in this.

I'm very, very scared.

I wonder if our battlecry should be, 'the system is open to abuse'. We need something to enlighten people.

Aha85, thanks very much for that information. I appreciate you coming back to me on this.

@Marty13

" a seriously sick TW can go in the mens ward/bay"

Why would you want to put a woman in a men's ward ?

So much hatred on this thread, and so little empathy. Funny also how trans men are never mentioned, ever. Would you put them in women's wards, or men's, out of curiosity ?

I really shouldn't be surprised, the si-called "feminist" chat is a cesspit. Who cared about actual issues, like equality of salaries and equal job opportunities, when you can hate on a minority instead ?

I think you have your genders mixed up. Read what a TW is first.

Could you get someone else to do the same FOI request so that it doesn’t have your name on it? Isn’t there a website? Then release the response to your MP etc as a whistle blower.

@Coffeeandcocopops

Could you get someone else to do the same FOI request so that it doesn’t have your name on it? Isn’t there a website? Then release the response to your MP etc as a whistle blower.

Or do an foi of every large teaching hospital

Yes the system is very open to abuse. But the threshold for women's dignity, privacy, consent, respect for feelings and beliefs and culture and political affiliations should not be absolute certainty, proven beyond all doubt, that a woman will be seriously hurt.

It's quite simple. Is this 'kindness' and 'fairness' and 'inclusion' and 'diversity' and 'intersectionality' about real, actual values extended equally to all people - which means solutions that work equally for all and acceptance without exception for all ...

or is it not.

And if it's not, then lets get honest please about what it's really about and the ethics of it.

The system IS open to abuse (of women). Absolutely and quite literally.
But also the system is being systematically rebuilt via untransparent, undemocratic, unevidence-based lobbying to not only be open to, but to actually CAUSE to women: physical and emotional discomfort, loss of privacy and dignity, promoting anxiety, stress, lack of freedom or lack of freedom to object. This takes away our reasonable expectations just to be able to be ill and have the necessary invasive treatment or diagnostics or recover from whatever in peace. It’s like even when we’re at our most vulnerable, ill or dying, women STILL have to budge up and be nice for everyone else otherwise we’re the bad guy. FUCK THAT.

Men who can’t respect women’s boundaries could be dangerous, everyone knows that. Why are we being forced to pretend otherwise? This has not been properly risk assessed and hospitals surely have a legal responsibility to patients?

X post Michelle

could somebody help me with writing a letter to my mp

He is rather busy at the moment with covid (hint! ++++)
( Hiya Matt!)
he does sprout the party line but I think this is something that needs saying