Help me respond to a captured hospital please!

[timeforsheroes]

I've nc'd because I made the FOI request in my own name, and these people are also my employer

i asked for the EIAs on 'supporting gender transitioning at work' and 'transgender care' i.e. staff policy and patient policy. I asked what considerations were given to the PCs of sex and religion. I asked who was consulted re these documents, and what was done to ensure all stakeholders were consulted before the documents were approved.

This is the abridged reply: Relevant stakeholders were consulted, involving Trans staff, Encompass network and [local LGBT charity]. These documents were also discussed with management and staff side representatives.

The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic. We have a duty to protect transgender patients and staff from discrimination harassment and victimisation and promote good relations between protected groups. We provide Trans Awareness training for staff to promote understanding to support implementation of these guidance documents.

Trans members of the LGBT+ staff network were invited to comment and consult on the documents by open invitation- to all staff on LGBT+ staff network circulation list were contacted

Both EIA checklist gender but not sex, and have 'positive' against gender reassignment and gender, and 'n/a' against all the other PCs. the patient policy EIA includes this gem:

If there is a negative impact on any of the groups, are you able to justify it, if so how? The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure.



i feel like I've been punched. This is my employer. And the hospital I and my DC and my mum would be taken to if we get ill. Please help me to respond, I'm so gutted they approved this crap, and replied like this, I can't think straight.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Mumwon

He knows what a man is, so I imagine he knows what a woman is. Very funny clip where Julia Hartley Brewer quizzes him on the DoH "woke social media team" after they had put out a much mocked tweet about "certain genders" being more likely to die from covid,

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/health-department-tweet-terribly-woke-says-julia-hartley-brewer-20050533277

[Aha85]

What kind of letter are you trying to write to him Mumwon? Is it in his role as SOS for Health re: single sex hospital wards? Or something more general?

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

Jesus.

At least they have been dim enough to put this in writing:

The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure

They will take disciplinary action against employees who express concerns relating to their protected characteristics of sex and religion? I hope they've got good lawyers.

[mumwon]

single sex wards re this thread

[Gerla]

Quite apart from using a slur to refer to people who believe sex exists, they have said in writing that religion is based on misunderstanding?? Surely they are the ones committing the hate crime, here? This is what comes of not bothering to solicit a range of people before drawing up your one-sided policy.

[Gerla]

So much hatred on this thread, and so little empathy
Where's the empathy for the women? Women are very vulnerable to sexual assault in hospital. They deserve and need single SEX spaces. Without them, they are more at risk and more likely to not get the treatment they need.

[Carefulvulvadriver]

Hi OP. Sorry I haven’t read all the responses, so apologies if this has already been discussed.

Has the trust published their response in their “FOI log”? Many do. If they’ve done that, then perhaps one of the campaigning groups/academics/journalists speaking out about this utter bullshit might “stumble” across it??

[Manderleyagain]

Carefulvulvadriver that's a good idea. I expect the campaign groups regularly survey foi's in this area so they could have easily come across it. Or they could send in their own foi request to start afresh.

It really doesn't look like the process leading to the policy, the eia, or the policy meet what's expected for a public body like this. To me, it is discriminatory. I really hope something comes of this. Good luck OP. There is a network of local campaign groups so others in the trust area could take it up.

[mumwon]

My concern is that there is an implicit assumption that no one would or could use the trans debate as a way of acting as a predator however rare & as such both parties in this have rights to protection - much like doctors having chaperons. Predators seek vulnerabilities in systems & opportunities & you cannot always tell who is or is not one. Consider how many volunteer & establish themselves as virtuous & good citizens - you cannot even (nor should you as it invades the innocents privacy) do police searches on patients. Because there is a fall back is self identification which does not entail any past evidence of lived in experience of changing gender this is of great concern.
On a practical level the ward its self & the nursing & medical care have different focus for much of the treatment because of the sexual biology of the patient & the interaction of their sex on their anatomy
Not only does someone's religious beliefs need to factor into this but social sensitivities
Treatment by someone who is trans comes into a different category because at the very least they have had criminal checks & even than surely someone should be entitled to religious sensitivity re treatment (excepting emergency) & chaperonage (& frankly as we know anyone should be able to ask for this in any procedure whatever sex or age they are or that of the medical individual involved - again to protect both parties).
I do not include the high dependency wards etc because the situation there is completely different
New policies have been put into place in some hospitals that forbid staff from raising concerns even those based on sensitivity re patients religious or cultural background.
I believe the hospital priority has to a place where all patients have to feel safe & as such if someone is trans under these circumstances they need to have their privacy & dignity maintained in a separated areas where their specific needs can be met

[timeforsheroes]

Carefulvulvadriver that's a great idea and one I hadn't thought of! On the website they've only published up to December but it looks like they publish in three month batches so presumably mine would go out in the next one. Though it does say they publish 'those in the public interest' so I don't know if they cull before publishing the log.

I am composing a letter to the Baroness and maybe Lord Hunt, and I've started gathering resources to quote for when/how I reply to the FOI response. FWRers are amazing!

[Shiula]

I'm sorry, can't trans people be women at all? I understand is common ground here that trans women are not women, but what about trans men? Are they not women, according to your world-view? If not, what are they? The idea that "ask transpeople" ≠ "ask any woman", seems only in your mind to me. I don't understand you all.

[Thelnebriati]

Shiula On another thread, women are being called transphobic for saying that trans men are biological women. Its really not womens problem to solve; we need single sex services.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Are they not women, according to your world-view?

They're female. The word woman just refers to an adult human female person. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that we don't think any trans people are women. But trans people's issues are not the only consideration here. Other female people's rights and feelings should be considered equally important.

[titchy]

@Shiula

I'm sorry, can't trans people be women at all? I understand is common ground here that trans women are not women, but what about trans men? Are they not women, according to your world-view? If not, what are they? The idea that "ask transpeople" ≠ "ask any woman", seems only in your mind to me. I don't understand you all.

Trans men are biologically female and should be treated medically as such. Which would almost certainly mean a female ward, though I could understand that a single occupancy room if available on a female ward might be more suitable.

[Shiula]

@Ereshkigalangcleg In this thread alone there a few examples of "they ask trans people, so they didn't ask women". Something I'm seeing a lot here on feminism on mumsnet, I don't think I'm the one jumping to conclusion. (but I'm new here, so maybe it's just a moment).
Also, did my message imply that " other female people's rights and feelings " shouldn't " be considered equally important "?

[teawamutu]

[quote Shiula]@Ereshkigalangcleg In this thread alone there a few examples of "they ask trans people, so they didn't ask women". Something I'm seeing a lot here on feminism on mumsnet, I don't think I'm the one jumping to conclusion. (but I'm new here, so maybe it's just a moment).
Also, did my message imply that " other female people's rights and feelings " shouldn't " be considered equally important "?[/quote]
Perhaps another way to frame it would be that even if transmen were consulted (and tbh, almost all the prominent TRAs and TRA groups are TW or focused on TW so I would question that) - the organisation certainly did not bother their arses to consult anyone who would prioritise the needs of adult human females.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

Would all TM regardless of stage of transition wish to be placed on a male ward and feel safe there? In all circumstances?

I can't think many reasonable female people would feel that any TM who when injured, ill, vulnerable and possibly needing invasive or intimate care with nothing more than a flimsy curtain between them and the male occupants of the ward, or in the face of the reality of the specific male patients currently there on the ward, should ever have to be put in that position if they did not want it. Because their dignity, privacy, sense of safety and actual safety and their ability to be relaxed and to rest and to be able to recover all matter a great deal, and being on a male ward may very well to a TM not always be a safe or easy or tolerable thing.

If you see that, then you have to be able to see why it is not ok to ask all females, regardless of circumstance, to abandon their own needs in the way that you would not ask a trans person to. Equality of values.

In the 21st century it's perfectly possible to come up with additional spaces, provisions and options that value and meet all needs instead of a binary solution in which female patients must be the losers. That's symptomatic of enforcement of a political agenda, not anything regarding quality of inclusion, diversity or patient care.

[NiceGerbil]

Trans men seem to be fairly quiet on this.

My understanding is that no trans men have been placed in a male prison because of the risk to them. I am willing to be corrected on that.

Trans men are female. In general they will be smaller than the vast majority of men. They are not a physical threat to them, if anything it's vice versa. As females they are statistically a very low risk of being voyeurs/ sexual predators etc.

It's a totally different dynamic.

If a trans man feels they pass and in more controlled circs anyone controlling things agrees then there's no harm to men of putting them in with the men.

In practice many seem to opt for female stuff.

And I would hate TMAM to mean that any female who had a male gender id would automatically go on male wards etc even if they presented as 'femme' ie female.

Trans men get raised by people who argue TWAW a lot as a 'gotcha' but it's not. Totally different situation and you don't hear nearly so much from them.

[NiceGerbil]

It's different in schools etc where boys would feel very uncomfortable getting changed with someone they knew was a girl.

For men and boys there's the privacy and dignity piece.

For women there's the danger piece on top. Amplified by that fact there's so many creepy men around who will go to great lengths to target women and girls.

[MeltsAway]

All the evidence (and it's interesting that this seems to have stopped in recent years - wonder why?) is that women and men dislike mixed sex hospital wards and women feel unsafe in them.

You only have to read a few of the fairly regular AIBU threads "Should partners be allowed into maternity wards all the time?" and a number of women's experiences of intrusive, peering, inappropriate or gawping behaviour by other women's male partners on maternity wards.

[highame]

I think our Public Services, in their entirety, are out of control. They seem to have become States within a State. The only way around this is for a public enquiry. Sorry haven't RTFT but hopefully people have made these sorts of comments

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

My understanding is that no trans men have been placed in a male prison because of the risk to them. I am willing to be corrected on that.

As in other areas like rugby, for example, transmen are not placed in a male environment as it, and I quote "would be dangerous for them" and, in rugby, male players shouldn't be placed in a position to do egregious harm to a femal playing rugby.

It show up all sorts of hipocrasy but mainly shows that ALL organisations, captured or not, recognise a woman when they want to / fear being sued!

[gardenbird48]

@NiceGerbil

Trans men seem to be fairly quiet on this.

My understanding is that no trans men have been placed in a male prison because of the risk to them. I am willing to be corrected on that.

Trans men are female. In general they will be smaller than the vast majority of men. They are not a physical threat to them, if anything it's vice versa. As females they are statistically a very low risk of being voyeurs/ sexual predators etc.

It's a totally different dynamic.

If a trans man feels they pass and in more controlled circs anyone controlling things agrees then there's no harm to men of putting them in with the men.

In practice many seem to opt for female stuff.

And I would hate TMAM to mean that any female who had a male gender id would automatically go on male wards etc even if they presented as 'femme' ie female.

Trans men get raised by people who argue TWAW a lot as a 'gotcha' but it's not. Totally different situation and you don't hear nearly so much from them.

exactly. I think there was an awful case where a transman was raped in a taxi. The rapist didn't really care about the gender identity of the person he realised was female - it made no difference to him.

The issue in general isn't with trans people - it is with male people. We want and need to exclude male people from our single sex spaces regardless of how they identify.

Someone being trans should not override the biological fact of their sex. Their sex is immutable and changing an identity does not meaningfully change any other aspect of a person.

[DayBath]

Following this with interest. OP please remember that while your efforts are admirable you shouldn't have to risk your job security for this. I second the PP who suggested a well known campaigner could take this up on your behalf. I'm sure FOI responses get leaked all the time and could find their way into the right hands.

[Watermonster]

@timeforsheroes I will send you a pm