Help me respond to a captured hospital please!

[timeforsheroes]

I've nc'd because I made the FOI request in my own name, and these people are also my employer

i asked for the EIAs on 'supporting gender transitioning at work' and 'transgender care' i.e. staff policy and patient policy. I asked what considerations were given to the PCs of sex and religion. I asked who was consulted re these documents, and what was done to ensure all stakeholders were consulted before the documents were approved.

This is the abridged reply: Relevant stakeholders were consulted, involving Trans staff, Encompass network and [local LGBT charity]. These documents were also discussed with management and staff side representatives.

The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic. We have a duty to protect transgender patients and staff from discrimination harassment and victimisation and promote good relations between protected groups. We provide Trans Awareness training for staff to promote understanding to support implementation of these guidance documents.

Trans members of the LGBT+ staff network were invited to comment and consult on the documents by open invitation- to all staff on LGBT+ staff network circulation list were contacted

Both EIA checklist gender but not sex, and have 'positive' against gender reassignment and gender, and 'n/a' against all the other PCs. the patient policy EIA includes this gem:

If there is a negative impact on any of the groups, are you able to justify it, if so how? The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure.



i feel like I've been punched. This is my employer. And the hospital I and my DC and my mum would be taken to if we get ill. Please help me to respond, I'm so gutted they approved this crap, and replied like this, I can't think straight.

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

A hospital is saying that the GC position is the ‘belief’ and the T and non binary position is the reality? FFS.

Could you send this FOI to the chairman and the board of health for the hospital and to the PALs team etc under a pen name? Also to Private Eye?

[Seethefairfromtheair]

Dont they know a councillor had to step down for using the t**f slur? Its abuse, sod that.

[TofuDelights]

Placemarking as I think I'm going to need some of the very important info here when my employer finally completes the EIA for their new policy. You read that right - they have issued the policy before they have done the impact assessment.

[lionheart]

That response really takes the .

As persistentwoman says, it looks as if it was written by an activist.

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

In on my phone do can’t link but search for North Somerset in here OP. The hospital tried to pull this bullshit there and there’s a long thread about how they were forced to change their position after interventions from several mumsnetters

[Aha85]

@TofuDelights

Moses LJ in R (Kaur and Shah) v Ealing LBC [2008] EWHC 2062 (Admin): “The process of assessments should be recorded .... Records contribute to transparency. They serve to demonstrate that a genuine assessment has been carried out at a formative stage." (my emphasis)

They are really not supposed to leave creating the EIA until after creating the policy 🤦‍♀️

[NiceGerbil]

'The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic.'

Blimey. That's an actual NHS response? Sounds like it was written by another party.

What about baroness thingy. Your MP. Etc.

That guidance is seriously bonkers.

The idea that patients would only object to xyz on religious grounds in bad faith. IE they don't mean it it believe it they're just bigots. WTF?

[MaudTheInvincible]

Yes, the Baroness would be interested I think.

[YouSetTheTone]

Wow that hospital used the word TERF in a response? That’s beyond appalling. This is funded by the public and should be catering to ALL the needs of society not just one group (trans people).
This needs to go higher. To the Baroness, or your local MP.

[ChattyLion]

OP you must be feeling very shocked by all this. What a terrible response. Due to the seriousness of what it is outlined I would have thought anyone could complain, because female patients and staff would be negatively affected.

This link sets out how to complain (as a patient)

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-and-social-care-complaints/complaining-about-the-nhs/nhs-complaints-procedure/how-to-make-a-complaint-about-nhs-services/

This link sets out the various types of organisations that provide professional support to complainants to the NHS: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-and-social-care-complaints/complaining-about-the-nhs/who-you-can-go-to-when-you-have-a-problem-with-the-nhs/organisations-that-can-help-you-make-a-complaint-about-health-services/

[ArabellaScott]

Absolutely unbelievable.

Take it to the press, to your MP, to a lawyer, to the NHS as high as you can go. They're using a slur, they're explicitly excluding women/sex as a protected characteristic, they're making a slur against religious beliefs as being transphobic.

This is shocking, OP. Well done for getting it out there, I'm not surprised you're shocked.

Worth considering a solid strategy to take this further, and plenty of knowledgeable people here will be happy to help, I'm sure.

I bloody hope it's not my local NHS!

[gardenbird48]

That is horrendous op - both for you at work and as a potential patient. I thought our local policy was bad (if a convicted male sex offender wishes to be placed on a female ward and is deemed a risk to the women they may be prescribed anti-libidinous drugs) but that one takes the prize so far.

North Lanarkshire hospital staff successfully fought against similar policies but it sounds like you’ve got good advice and we’re all here to support in any way we can.

Good luck with your plan of action - keep us updated if you can.

[timeforsheroes]

Thank you, you nest of vipers

I will do something, I don't know what yet but I will take in all the helpful info on the thread and decide what to do next with a clearer head.

I won't lie, I am scared because whatever I do will most likely lead to them realising that I'm staff. I am my children's only living parent, I'm the only breadwinner and only carer. And with a response this bad I'm scared for my job

I don't want to name the Trust here, because I'm scared to, but this is not a small out of the way local hospital led astray by knowing no better than to put their faith in the misinformation of lobby groups. It's a very large, internationally lauded teaching hospital, full of world experts in various branches of medicine and research. It's not a Stonewall champion, though the university it is a teaching hospital for is.

I know the EIA and the FOI response read like they were completed by a lobby group, but even if they were, this would have been signed off by so many people in the Trust - HR, maybe unions, information governance, equalities steering group - not one said 'hang on a minute'? I found the policies by following a link in a daily staff briefing email, proudly pointing staff to the newly revised policies in time for LGBT history month. This isn't a wokist in a back office somewhere going rogue without the grown ups knowing. They publicised it, to their several thousand staff, as a good new thing

[Gottalife]

[quote ColourMagic]@Evarish wrote: ..... "Most cis women are perfectly fine or don't give a damn about trans women in women's spaces."

Who the hell are you to claim that? You didn't ask any women what we think/feel about having men in our safe spaces. We are Women ('cis' can go to hell, it is NOT our word).

I am a Woman and I don't want men in what should be a safe space of a women's hospital ward when I am sick and vulnerable.
.[/quote]
What? Not even medical, housekeeping or maintenance staff, or a seriously sick TW? It's just a hospital ward not a bloody nunnery.

[DIshedUp]

@Gottalife a seriously sick TW can go in the mens ward/bay or a side room. Why do they need a bed alongside women?

The comparison to a nunnery is unusual, usually that would be used in a sexual context? Thats part of the pointwise, women who have a religious reason to he separated from men should be allowed that? Women in hospitals are incredibly vulnerable.

[Shedbuilder]

It's great you've got that in writing from them. It shows a complete lack of awareness of the Equality Act 2010 and if a member of staff would like to take them on — either a woman who can show that her rights have been breached, or a member of a religious faith that doesn't permit shared facilities with males — I think they'd be in trouble. Maya's case is surely pertinent as well as the MoJ?

[Tibtom]

It's just a hospital ward

Funny how we get told 'its just one word' 'just two words' 'just a hospital ward' 'just a piece of paper' yet TRAs get very upset when the one word/two words/hospital ward/piece of paper is not to their liking. If it is just a ward then why are TW not happy alongside other men on their ward?

[Tibtom]

Isn't there a review somewhere on here of a similar EQIA done in Devon or Somerset which laid out the issues?

[NiceGerbil]

'What? Not even medical, housekeeping or maintenance staff, or a seriously sick TW? It's just a hospital ward not a bloody nunnery.'

Nunnery? That's a strange reference. What do you mean?

On the other point. I stayed in a mixed sex ward when I was 17 or 18. The other beds were all occupied by men. It was not a comfortable experience.

I must admit I haven't caught up fully so I may be off the point.

[Marty13]

" a seriously sick TW can go in the mens ward/bay"

Why would you want to put a woman in a men's ward ?

So much hatred on this thread, and so little empathy. Funny also how trans men are never mentioned, ever. Would you put them in women's wards, or men's, out of curiosity ?

I really shouldn't be surprised, the si-called "feminist" chat is a cesspit. Who cared about actual issues, like equality of salaries and equal job opportunities, when you can hate on a minority instead ?

[NiceGerbil]

If someone is seriously ill they are in a and e, ICU or critical care.

They are all mixed sex.

This is more about long term care / longer stays post surgical etc.

[NiceGerbil]

I hope that gives you some comfort.

[NiceGerbil]

I've been in hospital for long periods of time as a child and when older.

I've been on mixed and single sex wards.

I'm happy to answer any questions about that.

[Evarish]

[quote ColourMagic]@Evarish wrote: ..... "Most cis women are perfectly fine or don't give a damn about trans women in women's spaces."

Who the hell are you to claim that? You didn't ask any women what we think/feel about having men in our safe spaces. We are Women ('cis' can go to hell, it is NOT our word).

I am a Woman and I don't want men in what should be a safe space of a women's hospital ward when I am sick and vulnerable.
.[/quote]
Someone who looks at polls instead of exclusively listening to transphobic echo chambers.

I'm not saying men should be in women's wards (as trans women aren't men and saying they are is, by default, transphobic), those advocating to force trans people into spaces they aren't safe and don't want to are.