Baroness Jones - Men too have a 6pm curfew

[Mariearistocat]

Baroness Jones has been speaking in the House of Lords today and has called for a curfew to be put in place for men to be banned from going outside after 6pm to help women feel safer on the streets after dark.

Would you support this?

Hahaha

Andy - yes, it's ludicrous. Completely ridiculous and intolerable. Even if men were allowed out with a female chaperone.

But at the moment, I wonder what the relative participation rates in all the activities you mention are for unaccompanied women v unaccompanied men? I don't know ... I very rarely go out by myself in the evening, whereas DH used to a lot. I don't think we're unusual in that regard.

So andy given that this is basically a thought exercise, let's stretch it a bit further: let's just imagine for a moment that it was achievable, that it wouldn't wreck the economy, that the only inconvenience was to men. Let's pretend it wasn't even a permanent arrangement but only for a week and that, by complying with it, men could make women safe. Do you think men would do it?

Incidentally I once put that question to some male friends in real life, during the Yorkshire Ripper investigation when women were again being told not to go out at night. Not a single one of them would answer me. As I've said, I had considered these men friends. 40 odd years on, I'm curious to see if anything has changed.

Floisme

Honestly? I think domestic violence would skyrocket. I think the only people who wouldn't comply would be the very types who would commit the crimes.
I think education and the justice system have to take the kid gloves off and start punishing violent criminals. The judges/judiciary need to start listening to women more, as does the first point of contact - the police.
If it was only for a week, then would we see an upturn in violence by known offenders when the curfew ended?
We know that the police very often turn a blind eye to domestic violence and other crimes such as "grooming". The whole system needs to be overhauled.

@andyoldlabour

Floisme

Honestly? I think domestic violence would skyrocket. I think the only people who wouldn't comply would be the very types who would commit the crimes.
I think education and the justice system have to take the kid gloves off and start punishing violent criminals. The judges/judiciary need to start listening to women more, as does the first point of contact - the police.
If it was only for a week, then would we see an upturn in violence by known offenders when the curfew ended?
We know that the police very often turn a blind eye to domestic violence and other crimes such as "grooming". The whole system needs to be overhauled.

This

@andyoldlabour

Floisme

Honestly? I think domestic violence would skyrocket. I think the only people who wouldn't comply would be the very types who would commit the crimes.
I think education and the justice system have to take the kid gloves off and start punishing violent criminals. The judges/judiciary need to start listening to women more, as does the first point of contact - the police.
If it was only for a week, then would we see an upturn in violence by known offenders when the curfew ended?
We know that the police very often turn a blind eye to domestic violence and other crimes such as "grooming". The whole system needs to be overhauled.

That might well be the result, but it wasn't what Floisme actually asked.

If restricting your own liberty for a week would help keep women safe, would you do it?

You've not answered the question andy. What I am saying is, let's just pretend for a moment that none of those issues existed, that men could genuinely make life safer for women simply by inconveniencing themselves for a short space of time. Do you think they would do it?

Thanks Errol :)

@ErrolTheDragon yes

But I'm not a man.

@ScrambledSmegs

I like the point she's making.

Obviously it won't happen for a myriad of reasons, but it's as good a suggestion as 'women, stay home for your own safety' is.

Absolutely.

The solution should be to prevent the behaviour, not tell women to avoid it as though it's inevitable.

I think the only people who wouldn't comply would be the very types who would commit the crimes.

I agree with this. If someone decides they are happy to break the law and become a murderer or a rapist, they're hardly going to use their 'conscience' and stay in just because the law says so.

I'l do it. A week of not going out is nothing out of the ordinary for me.

Can we extend the thought experiment to other areas? What about asking certain ethnic or religious groups not to travel by air? Can you imagine if we could go back to the chilled out atmosphere of airports in the 80s? Not having to strip at security, no body scan, no metal detectors, no random bag unpacking, carrying a drink wherever you like, make-up in your hand luggage, no dirty great queues at peak times. I used to love air travel. I absolutely despise airports now. Not to mention the tens of millions spent on intelligence and foiling plots.

Just as a thought experiment, you understand.

Thank you. It's interesting how my male friends 40+ years ago were equally incapable of answering with a straight 'yes' or 'no'. They just couldn't resist their 'buts' and their 'what about abouts?'. It taught me a lot about them I can tell you.

@Poppins2016

I think the only people who wouldn't comply would be the very types who would commit the crimes.

I agree with this. If someone decides they are happy to break the law and become a murderer or a rapist, they're hardly going to use their 'conscience' and stay in just because the law says so.

Well, them and the men who commit the majority of rapes and murders - known to the victim and inside the house.

The very rare event of being murdered on the streets will go ahead anyway.

@Floisme

Incidentally I once put that question to some male friends in real life, during the Yorkshire Ripper investigation when women were again being told not to go out at night. Not a single one of them would answer me. As I've said, I had considered these men friends. 40 odd years on, I'm curious to see if anything has changed.

Interesting question and after a year of lockdowns and precautionary self-isolations which we have participated in for the sake of others, this seems like an easy question to answer in the affirmative unless your name rhymes with Tominic Zummings.

The last time I asked the question it was 1979 and I was the prototype cool girl. While the married women hurried away from work to shop and cook tea, I headed out to the pub with the guys: beer and a packet of crisps for tea or, if it was Friday, a curry at closing time followed by the late night bus and a nervy walk home alone.

One of the guys was a Geordie and constantly getting ribbed about being the Ripper. So funny. They weren't laughing though about Reclaim the Night and the calls for a curfew on men: How dare they! Why, they spluttered, should they should lose their liberty when they hadn't done anything wrong? They did have the grace to look a little sheepish when I suggested this was exactly what was happening to women. But still, they protested, it was a ludicrous idea, unworkable, for all the reasons given here. So I asked them.

I honestly expected them to say, 'Of course we would Flo, don't be silly. These were my pals after all and I was one of them, wasn't I?

Floisme

Back to the debate. Over the last year, I cannot remember the last time I went out after 6:00PM.
However, if you said to me that you are not going to let me go out after that time for a week, then I would regard that as a punishment, a deprivation of freedom. There is no way that I would try to tell women that they should stay indoors for their own safety, that would be so misogynistic.
The following articles show the real problem, the judiciary. Look at the dates on the articles, this is happening over and over again, year after year.

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/16-rapists-among-hundreds-of-london-sex-offenders-let-off-with-a-caution-a3657781.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/06/joseph-mccann-convicted-horrific-rapes-after-being-let-out-of-jail-by-mistake

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/366504/Scandal-of-rapists-let-off-lightly-by-judges

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226530/100-rapists-let-caution-The-offences-come-court.html

Is that a 'yes' or a 'no' andy?

If me staying in for a week would stop racist violence I'd do it in a flash. (I'm white).

No two ways about it.

Why are men so sensitive about this, why do so many get so emotional, take it personally.

It's a bit weird isn't it?

"If me staying in for a week would stop racist violence I'd do it in a flash. (I'm white)."

It wouldn't stop it at all, it would simply be a token gesture, virtue signalling, a bit like clapping for the NHS, when a sizeable number of people refuse to wear masks or socially distance.

Floisme

I think it is a totally bonkers idea. It wouldn't have stopped the latest suspect either, because he was a firearms officer engaged in special protection duties.
As I have stated before, I don't agree with punishing everyone for the crimes of a few. It is too much like the theory of "original sin".
Should we put all Muslims under curfew conditions, because of the terrorist acts carried out by a minority of radical, extremist Muslims?

andy either you haven't read the question or I have worded it spectacularly badly. Please relax, it's not real - hence all the 'ifs'.
I'm just curious as to whether any men would tolerate an inconvenience for a short space of time - in a totally hypothetical situation if - again hypothetical - by doing so it would make women safer.

It's a straight ' yes/ no'. But of course don't have to answer if you don't want to - none of my friends would either - and I won't ask you again.

"I'm just curious as to whether any men would tolerate an inconvenience for a short space of time - in a totally hypothetical situation if - again hypothetical - by doing so it would make women safer."

Then that would be a "yes" from me.