Baroness Jones - Men too have a 6pm curfew

[Mariearistocat]

Baroness Jones has been speaking in the House of Lords today and has called for a curfew to be put in place for men to be banned from going outside after 6pm to help women feel safer on the streets after dark.

Would you support this?

@ErrolTheDragon

I suppose there are people who think Schrödinger was talking about a real cat

If she isn't being serious, it's just as bad to be flippant about it.

It's neither 'serious' as in literal nor 'flippant' - it's a thought experiment.

@ErrolTheDragon

It's neither 'serious' as in literal nor 'flippant' - it's a thought experiment.

But it doesn't stand up as an argument, whatsoever.

It's not meant to. that's sort of the point.

I know it's meant to be something really clever, but it isn't.

You need women to run every aspect of society

Fine with me, when do we start?

Let's be honest with this, we have been putting the onus on women to stay safe, for ever. It's not working, it's not sustainable and one day things will have to change.
If that means a curfew even once on men so that women can experience life without fear and means men understand what women have to do to not even necessarily be safe then I'm all for it.
It will never happen if course, but I sorely wish it would.

@Gurufloof

You need women to run every aspect of society

Fine with me, when do we start?

Let's be honest with this, we have been putting the onus on women to stay safe, for ever. It's not working, it's not sustainable and one day things will have to change.
If that means a curfew even once on men so that women can experience life without fear and means men understand what women have to do to not even necessarily be safe then I'm all for it.
It will never happen if course, but I sorely wish it would.

But why?

The people doing the attacks will not care.

And those who don't, if you genuinely think they don't get it, then you must not have a high opinion of them.

Let's be honest with this, we have been putting the onus on women to stay safe, for ever. It's not working, it's not sustainable and one day things will have to change.
If that means a curfew even once on men so that women can experience life without fear and means men understand what women have to do to not even necessarily be safe then I'm all for it.
It will never happen if course, but I sorely wish it would.

So now you’re saying a real curfew as a teaching tool would be good?

You know that it is the not-nice men who will ignore any curfew, however temporary?

Lockdown observance was very patchy and was protested and broken all over the place.

Spivs ignored the blackout and the air raid sirens and did what they want to do.

Criminals & deviants never observe any rule or law unless it suits them.

Structural change would be great, but it really needs to be genuinely structural, enforceable and not depend on voluntary cooperation.

Wouldn’t it be great if we could brainstorm a brand new and workable proposal?

One night a year where men and boys stayed in unless they had good reason would be really interesting!

Not going to happen obv.

One night a year where men and boys stayed in unless they had good reason would be really interesting!

The list of those with a good reason to be out of lockdown is not trivial. Quoting myself, but doctors, nurses, carers, maintenance engineers, electricians, gas workers, ambulance drivers, paramedics, firemen, emergency response co-ordinators, water mains and road repairmen. Then you have refuse collectors, delivery drivers, HGV drivers, factory workers, power station workers, miners, bar staff, door security, cinema and theatre workers. And police, which given recent events, is a problem in itself.

How do you manage even twelve hours without some of these functions?

@MishyJDI

Probably needs to be 8pm so they can get home from work - except for key workers. But yeah, sounds like a good and necessary thing! A great idea. Male violence is the issue.

As a brother who has always been protective of my younger sister, she is now 16 and starting get out a lot more with her friends these days. I would make the sacrifice if necessary to help keep her safe, but a 6pm curfew is pushing it i don't finish uni until 5:15pm in the evening and takes me more than an hour to get back home. 8pm is more realistic, embarrassingly though this would mean my younger sister could stay out later then me

No one said it had to be a short list of good reasons, Jurgen.

All of those are aok!

It's not a serious suggestion obviously.

However there have been plenty of times that the police have advised women not go out alone etc and women can have important jobs as well. So they're in a bit of a bind, aren't they.

However there have been plenty of times that the police have advised women not go out alone etc

Actually that’s a point, just that slender aspect alone. They need to be told to stop saying that shit. All police forces nationally need to be instructed that it just isn’t acceptable to advise that. Has that even been attempted by anyone with clout?

It's just so standard and 'common sense' that most people think yep.

A couple of thoughts.

I only found out recently that when the Yorkshire ripper was at large and the police finally decided to do something about it. They said to women. Don't know exactly. Don't go out alone etc.

That's referenced in most things about those crimes.

What I didn't know was that loads of women were really pissed off about that and protested etc. Why is that bit of the history usually left out?

The other point is it's not just the police it's everywhere. I used to get the tube home from a station where I knew the best place to stand on the platform to get a seat. The only place probably! For a number of months I had this poster opposite me, about 9 feet high:

images.app.goo.gl/NUtZv4Z7dieb632w8

I always wondered. These type of messages. They are around quite a bit. What are they subconsciously telling women, and men?

This was also running when John warboys was about, or at least he came after...

What I didn't know was that loads of women were really pissed off about that and protested etc
Yes we did. There was a curfew on men proposed then too - again more as a thought exercise than anything else. The outrage from all the men I had considered my friends at the mere idea that they should suffer any inconvenience taught me a lesson I have never forgotten.

So same old same old.

I find it really interesting that- and tbf I'm not a true crime fan or anything so I've just picked up bits and pieces along the way, read BBC articles about police mishandling etc. I know women were advised to stay in, not go out alone etc. I only recently found out that women protested this.

So why do the media do this sort of thing?

On even long pieces about the Yorkshire ripper always mention that women were advised to stay in but don't mention the protests?

With this case why was an ex copper wheeled out on C4 to announce that police aren't interested in indecent exposure?

The constant messages to women- and men. Society. About all this really trouble me.

What I didn't know was that loads of women were really pissed off about that and protested etc. Why is that bit of the history usually left out?

They were the original Reclaim the Night protests. A direct response to the police telling women to change their behaviour, because it took them years to catch the sick fucker and even then it was luck,

It was in 1977. 44 years since the first Reclaim the Night protests, and the same old shit is still being trotted out.

I know that now.

But it's not generally mentioned when things about that are written about.

Why?

It was as you say the trigger for reclaim the night. Which everyone has heard of.

Why then is it not mentioned more?

Why are the women's protests not worth touching on while the fact women were told to stay indoors etc is?

I feel it reinforces the idea that it's sensible and right that women should take care because they are at risk

And ignores the fact that loads of women said fuck that and started a movement that persists today.

The narrative is wonky.

Eg

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/mar/27/the-yorkshire-ripper-files-a-very-british-crime-story-review-a-stunningly-mismanaged-manhunt

Can't cnp for some reason.

Says at the time women were subject to curfew, at the time there was an increase in sexual harassment, women out alone were heckled etc.

No mention of women getting angry.

The female perspective is continually erased tbh.

I truly think lockdown has started to affect some people’s mentality.

In what way?

@Pyewackect

I truly think lockdown has started to affect some people’s mentality.

The only way lockdown is relevant to this thought experiment is that we've had a year of restrictions, actual curfews in other western democracies so people are more likely to take the idea seriously. Restricting the freedoms of one group of people - totally innocent people - for the benefit of others isn't as unthinkable or unworkable at the moment.

The protests were covered at the time as I remember. I imagine the reason you don't hear about them now is that - let's be honest - nothing changed.
And I'm afraid I can't see anything changing this time either. I think it will only change when and if the decent men get over their defensiveness and start asking questions of each other and of themselves. They're victims of violence too so you'd have thought they'd have an incentive to do something but - honourable exceptions aside - I'm not holding my breath. I'm not so much cynical as weary of it all.

@RickiTarr

Meh the bad men will just as happily kill us indoors as outdoors. Jenny should know that.

How about convicting them and locking them up early in their criminal careers? I’ll vote for that. Five years for coercive control or indecent exposure, mandatory minimum. Ten years for first ‘minor’ DV or sexual assault conviction. And so on.

This. This type of man needs to be cracked down on earlier and harder.