Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

Sex is not assigned at birth. It's identifed at birth, or sometimes even before birth.

@DadJoke so why is the disconnect a transgender person feels between mind (where feelings of identity originate) and body deemed 'gender dysmorphia' rather than 'body dysmorphia'? The latter would be tackled with psychiatric treatment. There is dysfunction in the sense that a disconnect between mind and body needs to be reconciled somehow otherwise it can be self destructive.

sex isn't assigned at birth - it's in every cell of who you are - information from amniotic fluid prior to birth is the most accurate way to determine sex. It isn't assigned.

"ask to find out the baby's sex; amniocentesis is the most accurate way to determine the baby's gender before birth. However, you may already know the baby's gender from an earlier ultrasound or genetic test.

@eaglerising

@DadJoke so why is the disconnect a transgender person feels between mind (where feelings of identity originate) and body deemed 'gender dysmorphia' rather than 'body dysmorphia'? The latter would be tackled with psychiatric treatment. There is dysfunction in the sense that a disconnect between mind and body needs to be reconciled somehow otherwise it can be self destructive.

good point.

In fact, wasn't it mentioned recently that a person had been diagnosed with Childhood Body Dysmorphia (or it may have been dysphoria but I can't find an entry for that).

I looked that condition up and it was recommended for psychiatric treatment. I wonder how the doctors would reliably tell the difference between Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria and why one is viewed as a mental health condition and the other is viewed as a condition requiring serious medical intervention.

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/body-dysmorphia/

@gardenbird48 , wow! I think it certainly shows how much ideology could potentially affect diagnoses. Unless someone can come along and show how there is a physiological difference between the conditions.

@DadJoke

I think checking definitions, I should have put dysphoria in my question not dysmorphia.

@Marmaladeagain

sex isn't assigned at birth - it's in every cell of who you are - information from amniotic fluid prior to birth is the most accurate way to determine sex. It isn't assigned.

"ask to find out the baby's sex; amniocentesis is the most accurate way to determine the baby's gender before birth. However, you may already know the baby's gender from an earlier ultrasound or genetic test.

You don't need amniocentesis to determine the sex - the Harmony test which is a blood test can tell the sex as it identifies whether a Y chromosome exists in the maternal blood. If it's there, then it's a boy. If it is not, then it is a girl.

Yes - trying to say "innate" except that tends to mean- something present from birth - whereas sex is present before birth - it's the essence of who we are.

Certainly not a feeling etc it's a distinct/discrete characteristic of being either male or female. So definitely not "assigned".

Sorry not read the thread, but "assigned" is the most stupid terminology for something so intrinsic of whether a male foetus or female foetus - which becomes male or female baby.

Not assigned by anyone, least of the all the individual born - they choose to present any gender they like but they won't have changed sex.

They weren't assigned sex - either male or female as the prenatal tests will help clarify if still think sex is a social construct interchangeable with "gender".

In relation to the Endocrine Society, the US one at least; there are things which will probably come to a head in time. There is a very interesting interview between an Endocrinologist and (I think) Benjamin Boyce.

The endocrinologist said that medications and treatments are usually discussed thoroughly from all angles, inside and out, with all outcomes robustly thrashed out.

Anything to do with the treatment and outcomes of people/children with gender identity issues, and there has been an alarming absence of this. He didn't think a dissenting view of the current treatments (Wpath/Epath?) would even be allowed to speak.

It was interesting as he said that there was an outcry when it was shown that there was an certain percentage increase of possible health problems when treating post menopausal women's with hrt. However, when using testosterone on women, there is a fourfold increase in the possibility of heart problems compared to other women. And twice the risk of heart problems when compared to men. And nobody is talking about it. He said that these cross sex hormones and medications are not just taken into an ambivalent body. Every cell is an XX or an XY and these interact with medication differently, even at cell level.

Also, just a word in relation to that rubbish posted in the link about Irish women being just fine (read disempowered and unable to react) with this 'Gender Ideology' which was sneakily imposed on the Irish population. There was a wonderful 'Irish Women's Lobby' webinar for International women's day. Grassroots women's groups being set up by Irish women who won't be taking impact of this latest imported men's rights ideology lying down; now we're aware of the sneaky way this legislation was imposed on Irish citizens.

I wouldn't take too much heed of the reports of the captured, past their sell by date, Irish organisations and ngo's full of anti-women activists. Or other misogynists who are loving the hating on women.

Transition is the treatment with the best outcome for gender incongruence.

Would be interested to see the evidence for this.

@MiddlesexGirl

Transition is the treatment with the best outcome for gender incongruence.

Would be interested to see the evidence for this.

There's been a lot of studies on this over the years. Here's a few:

2020 | Quality of life in people with transsexuality after surgery: a systematic review and meta-analysis
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7397654/

2019 | Quality of Life Following Male-To-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6546862/

2017 | Effects of Medical Interventions on Gender Dysphoria and Body Image: A Follow-Up Study
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

There's a lot more, have a poke about on google.

All I'll say is that the defining quality of a woman is not oppression.

Is incongruence the same as dysphoria?

As one of the links the 'studies' states this;
Every individual has a significant part of identity called gender identity. and they are quoting 'google scholar' and other articles on the internet and presenting it as if it was akin to a properly researched peer reviewed medical study, I would take those links with a very large dose of salts.

I thought that the effect of medication was only initially effective for a while. That most people who are presenting with dysphoria usually had other complex issues which led to the dysphoria and it was usually most effective if those were addressed along. In children, most of these cases usually resolved themselves if given a wait and see approach. The initial 'fix' with medication/surgery was only temporary and the other issues resurfaced.

Indeed as is now becoming more apparent, is that there is in reality very little proper assessment, never mind follow up of people who are given medication/surgery.

There seems to be ideological/political resistance to even study detransitioners = as James Caspian discovered when Bath University refused to allow him to do a masters on this. He was going to include people who had stopped taking the cross sex hormones but did not have reconstructive surgery. If I had had a double mastectomy and had been on cross sex hormones, I think I'd have said enough too, and just allowed my body to be left alone. Indeed even then there may be long term consequences.

Those 'study' numbers are tiny. Think of the thousands of girls presenting in England alone.

There seems to be ideological/political resistance to even study detransitioners = as James Caspian discovered when Bath University refused to allow him to do a masters on this.

I remember that. Has there been any peer reviewed research around detransition?

@Hibari
I'm looking through your links.
The first offers no comparison with before state.
The results of this systematic review may support the approaches to transsexuality that facilitates sex reassignment. In this review, the means of quality of life after surgery were not compared to the means of quality of life before surgery or even before hormonal therapy which was due to inadequate number of primary studies.

The second admits possible high levels of bias
All of the studies were judged to be at moderate to high risk of bias.

The third focussed on body image (though says it reports on other issues elsewhere - I haven't followed that through).
Is a 37% response rate considered good for a study of this type? Anyway the overall difference in body image score was less than 1 on a 5 point scale. That seems quite low to me, especially as the cohort which did not respond had a lower initial body image score.

Hibari:
" There's been a lot of studies on this over the years" .
Here's a few :

2020 | Quality of life in people with transsexuality after surgery: a systematic review and meta-analysis
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7397654/ "

The first sentence of the introduction to this is', ' Every individual has a significant part of identity called gender identity .

That is at best false; more likely just nonsense. Given which, of course any conclusion at all can be drawn.

You understand the principle ex falso quodlibet , Hibari? Have a poke around on Google.

www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/study-finds-long-term-mental-health-benefits-of-gender-affirming-surgery-for-transgender-individuals

Had to admit to overstating advantages

Has anyone else picked up that this report

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

quite a number of the transitioners seemed to have detransitioned to the point where they stated they were no longer living 'as the opposite sex'? This is a small study but states:

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Those numbers are pretty significant aren't they? And I point out these 8% figures are for POST medicalised transition.

It certainly makes me all the more concerned that a treatment plan that has been shown to perhaps have an 8+% rate of desistance from living in the 'gender' role they chose to have surgery to facilitate, is being hailed as the best course of treatment. At all!

This is rather preposterous to state in fact!

So, to get this thread's focus back on to how trans rights interact with the rights of women and girls to overcome a millennia of sexist discrimination, and to robust safeguarding, due to our sexed bodies,

I think it is very important to make sure that it is highlighted and acknowledged that treatment for gender dysphoria should always be tailored to the individual's needs. And to make sure that posters acknowledge that the current cohort of children and teen transitioners are female. And that a large proportion of these females have underlying mental health, trauma and other health issues that are significant enough to be co-morbidities.

I have seen this on another thread that is up and running at the moment and from social media that some (but certainly not all) who advocate for affirming only treatment or to ban what they consider as 'conversion therapy' but is actually treatment for underlying conditions first, do not acknowledge this difference at all!

As I stated on the other thread, the differences between male and female transition should never by ignored for political expedience of achieving an outcome that is very biased towards favouring one sex over another.

It is like Invisible Woman should be recommended reading for anyone advocating a treatment pathway that has that bias.... it is not a new phenomenon at all.

I just also want to add this paper for balance for the articles posted upthread. (thanks again OldCrone for the reminder to look under Will Malones' twitter account).

www.segm.org/danger_of_conflation

This page opens the discussion with
In September 2019, JAMA Psychiatry published an article, Association Between Recalled Exposure to Gender Identity Conversion Efforts and Psychological Distress and Suicide Attempts Among Transgender Adults. The article concluded that therapies that did not "affirm" an individual's transgender identity (which the article refers to as "gender-identity conversion efforts / "GICE") lead to severe distress and even suicide attempts. These findings have been used to promote legislative bans on non-affirmative therapies worldwide.

goes on in the paper linked to discuss that proposed in the title: 'One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria'.

linked here.

link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-020-01844-2.pdf

@Helleofabore

Has anyone else picked up that this report

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

quite a number of the transitioners seemed to have detransitioned to the point where they stated they were no longer living 'as the opposite sex'? This is a small study but states:

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Those numbers are pretty significant aren't they? And I point out these 8% figures are for POST medicalised transition.

It certainly makes me all the more concerned that a treatment plan that has been shown to perhaps have an 8+% rate of desistance from living in the 'gender' role they chose to have surgery to facilitate, is being hailed as the best course of treatment. At all!

This is rather preposterous to state in fact!

The choices are: Offer surgery, hormones and other treatments, which overall gives a good outcome for people with GD. Don't offer those treatments.

Overall, the conclusions suggest that the former is far, far better for people with GD.

This is the best available metaanalysis, which concluded:
whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

"Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques."

This is the best available metaanalysis, which concluded:

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/04/51524/

But the research does not support these claims. Examining the fifty-two studies that are cited as overwhelming evidence for the efficacy of transition reveals a complex picture that challenges the current transgender agenda. To borrow an analogyy^, the What We Know Project is trying to show us a brick wall of evidence—solid scientific study stacked on solid scientific study. But a closer look reveals a lot of cardboard painted to look like bricks.

First, two of the studies have to be excluded. Onee^ is out because it is an attempt to mathematically model the cost/benefit of gender transition, rather than providing original research on the effects of transition. The second inadmissible entry is a Brazilian study that the project tries to countt^ twicee^. Even careful scholars make mistakes, but this double-counting has apparently persisted unnoticed for over a year. Both Cornell and the New York Times overlooked this error, as did everyone who linked to the project as a definitive answer to debate over transition and gender dysphoria. Perhaps having a stack of studies to brandish was more important than assessing or even counting them accurately.

The Five Largest Studies
Surveying the remaining fifty papers reveals significant limitations. The most obvious problem is the low number of subjects in most of the studies. All else being equal, larger samples yield better results; there are even helpful onlinee^ calculatorss^ to help researchers and pollsters determine how many subjects they need for reliable results.

More:

The five largest studies were methodologically weak. The “2014 British studyy^” that Frank cited in his New York Times piece was “a narrative analysis of qualitative sections of a survey” from 2012 that was hosted online by SurveyMonkey and promoted through the UK by LGBT groups and support organizations. A “narrative analysis” of parts of a self-selecting online survey disseminated by LGBT advocates is not scientifically dispositive, even if the New York Times permitted it to be presented as such.

If we remember, Lisa Littman's ROGD study was panned for similar.

Sorry can't be arsed to read the whole thread, but FAO the OP - woman = adult human female. Just in case you don't know.