Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

[quote DadJoke]@Asugar Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore. They don't believe that gender identity is something that's been accepted and studied by the scientific and medical establishment. When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist. Because of this, they find "cisgender" a term used in more than 30,000 uncontroversial scientific papers offensive, the offensive being that it acknowledges that gender identity is real and trans women are women, as if it makes them somehow less of a someone.

They are in the same camp as the religious right and quote articles from right wing papers disparaging transgender people. They patronise trans men by saying "you're one of us, really." When discussing the danger of trans women as a class, they rely on anecdotes, not the evidence that trans women are not a danger as a class to cis women as a class.

A huge proportion of the threads here are directed at trans women rather than the primary sources of female oppression.

The prevelance of gender critical feminists in the UK is not reflected in Ireland, the States or most of Europe. They lovingly quote Germaine Greer who once said that transwomen "‘ghastly parodies’ of women" and Bindell who said "I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s does not make you a man." The thing is, most of the posters here would agree with the sentiment, if not the wording of those quotes.

For an overview from an American perspective of why gender critical feminists have such a big platform here but not say in Ireland, read this article. CW: contains the T-word.[/quote]
The vast majority of women on this board do not think this. If this is how young trans people think the general population sees them it is no wonder they think society hates them.... and it’s not us telling them that.

We do not accept we have a gender identity as accepting one is a means of oppressing us. We care deeply about people from many different walks of life and have been happily accepting the quiet dysphoric trans woman going about her business in our safe spaces for decades.

Statements like the above twist what we say and how we feel.

We will never accept to be threatened, harassed and stalked. This is what is happening irl. You said yourself you do not agree with the threats against JKR so why perpetuate the lies about us to others and increase the hate?

If we start from a place where we acknowledge gender identity and sex are real and protected, we can move forward.

I don’t understand what you mean. Gender Identity is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Gender Reassignment, however, is a protected characteristic.

I had to look to see what vapid nonsense about GC feminism Dadjoke was pushing. One of the many identikit pieces (think there are about 6, many reference Mumsnet as a hotbed of radicalism while also putting women down and suggesting we should talk about prams and fruit shoots rather than politics) written by female trans allies who don't really understand the GC position.

We will never accept to be threatened, harassed and stalked. This is what is happening irl. You said yourself you do not agree with the threats against JKR so why perpetuate the lies about us to others and increase the hate?

Because they need the lies. It’s the only way they can sound credible. That’s what happens when your arguments don’t stand on their merits.

I skimmed through the article posted by Dadjoke.
This stood out for me.

”in Britain, TERFs have effectively succeeded in framing the question of trans rights entirely around their own concerns: that is, how these rights for others could contribute to “female erasure.”

Aka: women advocate for women #shocker.

When the performance of femininity -by females, or males who view this as fundamental to their gender identity, -is validated as the defining characteristic of being a woman, over and above being female, that is a primary source of female oppression.

To dismiss this is to say, ‘so what if you were slapped around a bit, at least you weren’t raped’.

We can, and do, object to it all.

@GCAcademic

We will never accept to be threatened, harassed and stalked. This is what is happening irl. You said yourself you do not agree with the threats against JKR so why perpetuate the lies about us to others and increase the hate?

Because they need the lies. It’s the only way they can sound credible. That’s what happens when your arguments don’t stand on their merits.

Yes I know and it’s very sad because of the collateral damage. I don’t see it as moderate GC’s fucking up the mental health of the trans youth. Time for the trans community to think why trans youths believe the general public hate them. I’m really not surprised as they will have learnt what DadJoke is saying.

It is absolutely time that DadJoke and others spouting similar lines came to terms with the fact that people on this board are not the problem. It is the lies the community is telling one another, which is the issue. Time to do some soul searching @DadJoke if you actually want to help the younger generation of trans kids.

You're right, Mummy. Young people questioning their gender identity are told every day from within their own community that they are hated, they are the most oppressed and vulnerable, they are likely to commit suicide or be killed, when the facts aren't there to support that. That is hugely damaging to young minds.

The vast majority of women on this board do not think this. If this is how young trans people think the general population sees them it is no wonder they think society hates them.... and it’s not us telling them that.

That is so true. It absolutely is not us hating anyone, nor saying hateful things or perpetuating hate in any form.

We do not accept we have a gender identity as accepting one is a means of oppressing us. We care deeply about people from many different walks of life and have been happily accepting the quiet dysphoric trans woman going about her business in our safe spaces for decades.

Also true.

Statements like the above twist what we say and how we feel.

Yes they absolutely do.

We will never accept to be threatened, harassed and stalked. This is what is happening irl. You said yourself you do not agree with the threats against JKR so why perpetuate the lies about us to others and increase the hate?

This. I protect & advocate for myself, my daughters, and all women (adult female humans) and girls (minor female humans). Regardless of how the individual might identify, how they choose to present or what sex they’re attracted to, females are always protected, accepted and included within my feminism.

I also protect and advocate for children and vulnerable young adults of both sexes who absolutely need stringent safeguarding protections in place.

There are thousands of Kathoey in Thailand Hijras in India. They have their place in society and special laws built to accommodate them. They do not pretend to be the same as the opposite sex and would never dream of it. They have existed since historic records began.

Kathoey generally use female toilets though.

@DadJoke, do you think there is a danger that over validating the unease/disconnect transgender people feel between the bodies and minds, is like saying, 'Yes, you are right to feel uneasy, your body doesn't match how you should be!'. Unease and disconnect between mind and body only leads to destruction.

Would transgender people be better served by fully acknowledging the difference between biological sex and gender identity? And by widening the scope over what is deemed acceptable regarding gender expression? Gender is cultural and needs to be dealt with at a cultural level.

Biological female women have single sex provision and protections made for them under uk law. Any laws to provide for and protect transgender people should be separate from these. Because sex and gender are separate from each other.

The whole idea of gender as a discrete identity is really very recent. Before that there was transsexualism. Surgery was seen as a last ditch attempt to ease the distress and suffering of an individual caught up in severe dysmorphia and dysphoria. The prefix 'dys' suggests a state of malfunction.

The role of a therapist is to explore distress or psychological malady; but what happens in gender identity clinics is not therapy in any meaningful sense of the word. It is pure affirmation. Rather than seek to help the individual come to terms and to function, the clinician validates the suffering without question. You are who you say you are.

Many clinicians and therapists who have been working in this field for a long time see it as a craze that has taken hold, and a dereliction of professional responsibility. Young people, and others, are swept up via on-line communities and then demand their clinician 'treat' them and give them what they feel they want; what they have been led to believe will make them better. It is no longer clinician led practice. But medicine on demand.

U.S healthcare has long been like this, though. Adverts on TV for medications are standard, and many doctors have simply become people who write out the prescriptions that people want. That is how the opioid epidemic has come to hit U.S communities so badly.
Every feeling or thought is given a diagnosis and a prescription and course of treatment follows.

@Justhadathought

The whole idea of gender as a discrete identity is really very recent. Before that there was transsexualism. Surgery was seen as a last ditch attempt to ease the distress and suffering of an individual caught up in severe dysmorphia and dysphoria. The prefix 'dys' suggests a state of malfunction.

The role of a therapist is to explore distress or psychological malady; but what happens in gender identity clinics is not therapy in any meaningful sense of the word. It is pure affirmation. Rather than seek to help the individual come to terms and to function, the clinician validates the suffering without question. You are who you say you are.

Many clinicians and therapists who have been working in this field for a long time see it as a craze that has taken hold, and a dereliction of professional responsibility. Young people, and others, are swept up via on-line communities and then demand their clinician 'treat' them and give them what they feel they want; what they have been led to believe will make them better. It is no longer clinician led practice. But medicine on demand.

U.S healthcare has long been like this, though. Adverts on TV for medications are standard, and many doctors have simply become people who write out the prescriptions that people want. That is how the opioid epidemic has come to hit U.S communities so badly.
Every feeling or thought is given a diagnosis and a prescription and course of treatment follows.

Its interesting to note that apparently Munchausen's has been thought to have risen in prevalance since the rise of social media and doctor google and its now something that is starting to cause concern.

The fact this has been happening in parallel with the rise of children as young as 2 or 3 apparently coming out as trans should have a few red flags going off, but we can't say this out of fear of being labelled transphobic.

The whole subject is something that merits scientific investigation, if only to rule out a connection between the two phenomenon for the benefit of those concerned.

Its interesting to note that apparently Munchausen's has been thought to have risen in prevalance since the rise of social media and doctor google and its now something that is starting to cause concern.

Except the Munchausen's is also being institutionalised....

About the LN video.

This is the problem with TWAW as a complete ideology.

The moment you put a single exception in (e.g. trans women shouldn't be in prisons with women), the entire house of cards falls flat, because you are saying that, actually, transwomen aren't women after all and need different considerations and risk assessments.

So politicians are having to double down and make increasingly damaging and seemingly insane statements.

It is just a shame that rather than look at this situation and question whether it's actually true or right to state Transwomen are women in all circumstances, they just put their fingers in their ears and keep saying it.

@Ninkanink

Ahhhh I feel refreshed this morning.🌻🌻🌻

Thank you all, you strong, fearless, formidable women.

This, exactly this. Thank you for being indefatigable, incisive, eloquent, clever and never flinching or being distracted whilst faced with the incomprehensible fluid nonsense of gender ideology. It was a balm of common sense and reassurance.

@Ninkanink

The vast majority of women on this board do not think this. If this is how young trans people think the general population sees them it is no wonder they think society hates them.... and it’s not us telling them that.

That is so true. It absolutely is not us hating anyone, nor saying hateful things or perpetuating hate in any form.

We do not accept we have a gender identity as accepting one is a means of oppressing us. We care deeply about people from many different walks of life and have been happily accepting the quiet dysphoric trans woman going about her business in our safe spaces for decades.

Also true.

Statements like the above twist what we say and how we feel.

Yes they absolutely do.

We will never accept to be threatened, harassed and stalked. This is what is happening irl. You said yourself you do not agree with the threats against JKR so why perpetuate the lies about us to others and increase the hate?

This. I protect & advocate for myself, my daughters, and all women (adult female humans) and girls (minor female humans). Regardless of how the individual might identify, how they choose to present or what sex they’re attracted to, females are always protected, accepted and included within my feminism.

I also protect and advocate for children and vulnerable young adults of both sexes who absolutely need stringent safeguarding protections in place.

ALL of this. With thanks to both Ninkanink and Mummyoflittledragon for their wise words.

U.S healthcare has long been like this, though. Adverts on TV for medications are standard, and many doctors have simply become people who write out the prescriptions that people want.

When you put it like that it becomes really clear how compatible all this is with individualism and neoliberalism. I know better than doctors what treatment I need!

@eaglerising

@DadJoke, do you think there is a danger that over validating the unease/disconnect transgender people feel between the bodies and minds, is like saying, 'Yes, you are right to feel uneasy, your body doesn't match how you should be!'. Unease and disconnect between mind and body only leads to destruction.

Would transgender people be better served by fully acknowledging the difference between biological sex and gender identity? And by widening the scope over what is deemed acceptable regarding gender expression? Gender is cultural and needs to be dealt with at a cultural level.

Biological female women have single sex provision and protections made for them under uk law. Any laws to provide for and protect transgender people should be separate from these. Because sex and gender are separate from each other.

If your position came from the genuine belief that gender identity is real, and transition in early adulthood is best for most transgender children, but that you have to be careful, then I'd be happy with your position. Validating, yes, absolutely, over-validating (whatever that is) no. The current approach to transgender youth is pretty nuanced.

Here is an example from endocrinology:
growinguptransgender.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/endocrinology-guidelines.pdf

(This piece also contains some useful evidence and links to the biological and heritable nature of gender identity.)

Widening the scope of gender expression - absolutely. It's time to get rid of the criterion of "living in your new gender" altogether when recognising transgender people's identity. That has to be put along side the need for transgender people to be accepted for who they are; they want to fit in with other members of their gender and be accepted as such socially, which means that a gender incongruent girl may well want to share the gender expression of other members of their gender.

That said, it's important for a child's desire to embrace different forms of gender expression not to be conflated with their gender identity, and that gender expression in childhood alone is not enough to diagnose gender incongruence - the diagnosis is better delayed until the first signs of puberty after which it almost always persists. There should be nothing wrong with a boy who wants to wear a dress, or a girl who wants to wear trousers.

Based on current detransitioning rates, it seems like they are doing a reasonable job.

If your position came from the genuine belief that gender identity is real, and transition in early adulthood is best for most transgender children, but that you have to be careful, then I'd be happy with your position.

My position is nuanced.

Real? yes due to brain plasticity I fully appreciate there could be physiological differences in the brain between someone who is transgender compared to someone who is not. However, due to the epigenetic nature of gene expression I understand that some features might be heritable but still influenced by environment. Which means the environmental cultural influences can have a very definite physiological impact which could also impact future generations. We cannot forget that brain plasticity works both ways. It shouldn't be denied that it is possible to address any disconnect felt between mind and body on a more cerebral level. Address the mind rather than the body. A lot of psychiatric conditions also are marked by physiological markers in the brain. So the truth is more complex than real not real. Something in the mind, 'all in the head' can manifest in differences in brain physiology but this can actually be addressed directly either through counselling or other psychiatric treatments

The current approach to transgender youth is pretty nuanced.

Really? I don't think it is nuanced enough. It is too evangelical for that. By de- prioritising the very real, pretty clear cut, physical aspects of sex that denies the truth of people's biology too.

the diagnosis is better delayed until the first signs of puberty after which it almost always persists

But puberty is the very time when brain physiology is going through some pretty great changes! Hormones which affect the brain are also in a state of flux! It is a vulnerable time of life where it is not always easy to check thinking and quickly dismiss any erroneous thoughts. It is not at all surprising some teenagers feel pretty confused and concerned over lots of aspects of their life.

@DadJoke, with the need to transition it is being assumed the body is wrong for the mind when a disconnect is felt. Why is this? Maybe the mind is wrong for the body? Maybe altered thinking would alleviate the issue (addressed through counselling, socialisation, other psychiatric treatments). Why does hormones treatment focus on enabling transition rather than addressing any hormonal imbalances, in terms of what is normative regarding natal sex?

Based on current detransitioning rates, it seems like they are doing a reasonable job

Have you read Abigail Shrier's book' Irreversible Damage'? It would seem that the numbers of desisters and de-transitioners are really quite considerable in the U.S too.

When you put it like that it becomes really clear how compatible all this is with individualism and neoliberalism. I know better than doctors what treatment I need

Abigail Shrier points out that this trend towards medicines and diagnosis on demand has led to a subtle undermining in the status of doctors, who are now often referred to simply s 'health care providers'

and that gender expression in childhood alone is not enough to diagnose gender incongruence

If gender expression is just that.....gender expression, and that there is an infinite variety of possible expression; then what on earth is 'gender incongruence'? Incongruent from what?

So the truth is more complex than real not real. Something in the mind, 'all in the head' can manifest in differences in brain physiology but this can actually be addressed directly either through counselling or other psychiatric treatments

And in addition to this which I said, I think it is important to acknowledge how brain physiology can affect the endocrine system. Treating either can have knock on effects up the other.