Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

diagnose gender incongruence

Incongruence would suggest that there is a way to express 'gender' that is congruent? Congruent with what? If you don't mean the stereotypical expectation of behaviour based on sex, what on earth is it that can be incongruent? What is it you are seeking to bring into re-alignment?

Does 'incongruence' really need a diagnosis? It incongruence not just an individualistic quirk of expression?

Socialisation will undoubtably effect people's gender identity. People's plastic brains process all the signals from the environment they are receiving.

Indeed, I think it's difficult to even begin to unpick this.

And biological female women still need to be recognised as pretty much half the human species! With the language that goes with this fact. That certainly is pretty real!

@eaglerising

@DadJoke, with the need to transition it is being assumed the body is wrong for the mind when a disconnect is felt. Why is this? Maybe the mind is wrong for the body? Maybe altered thinking would alleviate the issue (addressed through counselling, socialisation, other psychiatric treatments). Why does hormones treatment focus on enabling transition rather than addressing any hormonal imbalances, in terms of what is normative regarding natal sex?

Pretty much for the same reason that conversion therapy, aside from not working, is abhorrent. Transition is the treatment with the best outcome for gender incongruence.

There is no evidence that hormone imbalance (outside perhaps gestation) is correlated with gender identity. Hormones, if you recall, were used to treat gay men, with just the outcome you might expect.

We keep being told that hardly anyone detransitions...and yet the findings at the tavistock clinic, for one, suggested that figures and follow-ups are hard to come by, and in fact virtually non -existent.

According to Shrier, " over 100 universities now cover transgender hormones under their health plans, and at least 87 colleges and universities cover gender surgery. At Yale the cost of a course of testosterone for a natal girl under the plan is $10 per month...less than a Netflix subscription'".

Young girls can walk into a facility and walk out the same day with testosterone ( on the basis of " informed consent"), and your university, or your school teachers will immediately affirm your new identity, and even help to keep this secret from your parents.

The ease with which these 'treatments' are made available suggests that there really are no longer term studies or follow ups of these young girls and women.

Transition is the treatment with the best outcome for gender incongruence

You haven't answered the question. Why on earth would 'incongruence' need to be medicalised and diagnosed, if what it is is merely a form of gender expression, of which there is a multitude of possibility and variety?

Incongruent from what? From social expectation?

@Justhadathought

diagnose gender incongruence

Incongruence would suggest that there is a way to express 'gender' that is congruent? Congruent with what? If you don't mean the stereotypical expectation of behaviour based on sex, what on earth is it that can be incongruent? What is it you are seeking to bring into re-alignment?

Does 'incongruence' really need a diagnosis? It incongruence not just an individualistic quirk of expression?

"Gender incongruence:This is an umbrella term used when the gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typicallyassociated with the designated gender. Gender incongruence is also the proposed name of the gender identity–related diagnoses inICD-11. Not all individuals with gender incongruence have gender dysphoria or seek treatment"

Sorry, I misused this technical term. I meant "diagnose gender dysphoria" rather than "diagnose gender incongruence".

The Endocrine Society article I linked to explains all the terms and their context.

@DadJoke

Transition is the treatment with the best outcome for gender incongruence.

Maybe for some individuals this is indeed true. However, I have very real concerns there is an over eagerness in terms of this being the solution.

And societal attitudes, as I have demonstrated in my earlier posts can indeed affect the plastic brain physiologically, and even future generations in terms of inheritable epigenetic adaptations.

So should society really be saying transgender women are the same as biologically female women?(recognising this could affect the brain physiology of future generations).

Should, as a society, we be seeking solutions to address the disconnect felt between mind and body in transgender people, through treatments which will make them reliant on medical intervention for the rest of their lives?

Pretty much for the same reason that conversion therapy, aside from not working, is abhorrent

No judgement here. Just asking questions. But how is a delusion defined? Do people really have a body which is wrong for their mind in terms of gender identity? Where do you draw the line and decide the issue is body dysmorphia, best dealt with on a psychiatric level.

Sorry first sentence should be in bold.

And in terms of drawing the line, who defines the margins over what is functional in terms of variance in hormone levels?

typically associated with the designated gender

Do you really mean sex, when you say "designated gender"?

Nobody is designated a gender. Gender is a construction or expression of norms and expectations of behaviour based on sex at birth.

There is no evidence that hormone imbalance (outside perhaps gestation) is correlated with gender identity

Then why treat it with artificial hormones? Which bit is wrong? The body or mind? If indeed hormones are well balanced but the transgender person feels a disconnect between mind and body...

The brain is plastic. It can change. It does so constantly in adaptations as a result of responding to the environment around it and the internal environment.

Not all individuals with gender incongruence have gender dysphoria or seek treatment

No shit, Sherlock!

Who here is totally congruent with social expectations and norms. It is normal to be 'incongruent', unless you are performing a role to the letter.

Who here is totally congruent with social expectations and norms. It is normal to be 'incongruent', unless you are performing a role to the letter.

And the more people who think any amount of 'incongruence' is not normal, the more are potentially medicalised unnecessarily.

gender dysphoria

Wait, I missed that!

So the person's gender can be deemed as dysphoric? And their body is treated and not their state of mind. The mind being the body part which processes and makes sense of cultural signals.

@eaglerising

gender dysphoria

Wait, I missed that!

So the person's gender can be deemed as dysphoric? And their body is treated and not their state of mind. The mind being the body part which processes and makes sense of cultural signals.

It's called gender dysphoria because the person's gender identity doesn't match their sex assigned at birth. You can't change gender identity any more than you can change their sexuality.

You can't change gender identity any more than you can change their sexuality.

I think the genderfluid people, the parttime gender switchers like Pip/Philip Bunce and the detransitioners will all disagree with you there.

To help out on terms, here are the Endocrine Society's definitions from the artcle.

@sanluca

You can't change gender identity any more than you can change their sexuality.

I think the genderfluid people, the parttime gender switchers like Pip/Philip Bunce and the detransitioners will all disagree with you there.

"any more than you can change your sexuality" ie to the same extent that people's sexuality is flexible., Genderqueer is a valid gender identity.

It's called gender dysphoria because the person's gender identity doesn't match their sex assigned at birth. You can't change gender identity any more than you can change their sexuality

You can't change people's sex either.

Surely it would be more gentle and kinder to try and support the person's emotional well being rather than making physical and potentially dangerous alterations to their body.

Sorry, DadJoke, but I don't think adding more types of gender identities to accommodate changing feelings is the way to go. You can if you want to but it just goes to show gender identity has nothing to do with sex and more with personality and there is no way to capture all these identities in legal terms.

person's gender identity doesn't match their sex assigned at birth.

There's no need to say "assigned at birth". You are talking about their identity not matching their actual sex.