Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Trans rights are a part of women's rights

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 09:16

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Deliriumoftheendless · 04/03/2021 21:45

@Ninkanink

Last time they threatened me with a ban I left of my own accord for about six months.

I spent the time talking, in person, with other women. Those women talked with other women. Who also talked with other women.

They won’t silence us. So we won’t be able to post on MN for a while. So what.

There is huge value in this.

I don’t want to see anyone banned, but there’s conversations to be had out there that can’t be stopped by twitter.

And we consistently see that’s when change happens.

Sophoclesthefox · 04/03/2021 22:03

I’ve had a look at the Twitter report you made @ASugar.

I don’t honestly know what to say, after what I’ve read on your profile (which you encouraged us to do, remember). But maybe one day you’ll feel differently about the rights that women have, and the rights we need. Maybe one day you’ll be as keen to prioritise women as you are to prioritise trans people, and maybe one day they’ll prioritise you back. Hand on heart, I don’t believe you’ve seen the full picture yet. You’ll dismiss this, of course, because one of the biggest tragedies that women suffer is that we’re too quick to dismiss what older women tell us. I did it. My mum probably did it before me. So every generation loses the knowledge that went before, and have to discover it in their turn.

Maybe I’m going soft in my old age. There’s nothing you’ve done today that has earned you my politeness or respect. But here it is anyway, and maybe one day you’ll get what I was saying.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 22:06

You're a better person than me, Sophocles Thanks

supernova89 · 04/03/2021 22:10

I don't see transwomen as women. I see them as transwomen. Their own category. I would always respect the pronouns someone wanted me to use for them as that's the kind and compassionate thing to do. I don't think trans rights are women's rights unless we are talking about basic human rights...

Sophoclesthefox · 04/03/2021 22:17

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You're a better person than me, Sophocles Thanks
I’m almost definitely not but thanks! Flowers
Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 22:21

@Sophoclesthefox

I’ve had a look at the Twitter report you made *@ASugar*.

I don’t honestly know what to say, after what I’ve read on your profile (which you encouraged us to do, remember). But maybe one day you’ll feel differently about the rights that women have, and the rights we need. Maybe one day you’ll be as keen to prioritise women as you are to prioritise trans people, and maybe one day they’ll prioritise you back. Hand on heart, I don’t believe you’ve seen the full picture yet. You’ll dismiss this, of course, because one of the biggest tragedies that women suffer is that we’re too quick to dismiss what older women tell us. I did it. My mum probably did it before me. So every generation loses the knowledge that went before, and have to discover it in their turn.

Maybe I’m going soft in my old age. There’s nothing you’ve done today that has earned you my politeness or respect. But here it is anyway, and maybe one day you’ll get what I was saying.

Please don’t think of this as old vs young. It’s really not.
Sophoclesthefox · 04/03/2021 22:30

No, it’s not necessarily like that, claudia, I agree. I’m in my late forties and one of my school friends is full bore transactivist.

MrsWooster · 04/03/2021 23:06

That list of accounts to which the op was bringing her ‘achievement’...

newyearnewname123 · 04/03/2021 23:14
  • @MNHQ do you feel a bit silly about your good faith position now that @ASugar / @AnxietySugar has reported back on twitter, complete with screenshots, gloating, half truths and lies - just like she and all of us said she would?*

I don't know why MNHQ took that line at all, it was blindingly obvious.

CharlieParley · 05/03/2021 01:13

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes" and you are from the sex class with large gametes, your gender identity is "woman," and you are cisgender according to the accepted theory

If a female person is found unconscious in a car accident, and cannot answer this question, how will the attending HCPs decide how to calculate dosages for medications? What tables do they look at to ascertain what the normal range for kidney or liver function are for this type of patient?

What gender identity does this patient have? And do the attending HCPs need to know this to save the patient's life after suffering this car accident?

IsItSpring21Yet · 05/03/2021 02:30

I initially only read the OPs posts because the thread was so large and wondered why they kept telling people to go to Twitter to discuss further or to look at their profile.

I thought it was someone trying to get engagement with their profile to look popular, because people who want to discuss female rights on Twitter are already there doing so, why the need to start a thread on mumsnet and then ask people to go to a different platform to engage with you further? To Twitter of all places, one of the most hostile places to females who are gender critical.

Appears it was all an "experiment".

DodoPatrol · 05/03/2021 07:15

Charlie, I have whacked it into the heads of even my wokiest child that if their cousin or one of their trans friends is ever found unconscious (not that improbable in a student!), they are to tell the paramedic that ‘This is Rhys, he’s 21, he’s female and takes testosterone.’

I seriously hope that no one would be dumb enough to prosecute them for hate speech if they ever need to do so.

SunsetBeetch · 05/03/2021 07:18

Well, some lurkers delurked and some new GC posters introduced themselves, so I think we've done ok out of it really.

Did we ever get definitions for woman, gender or gender identity, btw?

Sophoclesthefox · 05/03/2021 07:31

Did we ever get definitions for woman, gender or gender identity, btw?

You crazy optimist Grin

WoolOfBat · 05/03/2021 07:37

I thought it was a bit of a disappointment. We got no definitions to discuss of anything- I was looking forward to a good discussion about that.

I had no clue what the OP really thought - OP started with trans women are women and trans men are men and then the rights seemed to overlap in all directions also according to the OP. I am not sure the OP had thought about in detail.

I had also hoped for a constructive discussion around where women and trans women could have common causes - like for example having been forced to resign due to the pressure of both doing the majority of house work and all the homeschooling during the pandemic. This is a massive feminist issue and I was hoping for some real life stories about how trans women handled this. The OP refused to engage.

Cailleach1 · 05/03/2021 07:38

No definition or way of proving the existence of gender as an objective fact, beyond self declared feelings and stereotypes. However, it is equivalent to scientific fact, despite all of that. And it is material reality which is ethereal like religious belief.

wellthatsunusual · 05/03/2021 07:41

@DodoPatrol

Charlie, I have whacked it into the heads of even my wokiest child that if their cousin or one of their trans friends is ever found unconscious (not that improbable in a student!), they are to tell the paramedic that ‘This is Rhys, he’s 21, he’s female and takes testosterone.’

I seriously hope that no one would be dumb enough to prosecute them for hate speech if they ever need to do so.

Did you see the story on the news a few months ago where a transman, I think it might have been in Canada, was complaining that their kidney transplant was undertaken too late for optimum success because all their medical records had been, at their insistence, changed to say the person was male. So, medics followed the patients demands, treated as male, and then he was angry because he got inappropriate care because they were unaware that they were actually dealing with a female. It was insane.
wellthatsunusual · 05/03/2021 07:45

www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people

Sorry, it was the USA. But the article is written about how the medics were missing vital information, as if the fault was with them. They were missing vital information because the patient deliberately withheld it from them. Yet somehow the patient feels that it was the medics at fault.

DodoPatrol · 05/03/2021 07:55

Yes, I’d heard about that and it’s what prompted me to talk to my kids. After all, there is no shame in being female.

gardenbird48 · 05/03/2021 08:28

the older I get (as in older than I was last week), the more confused I get.

THE Katy Montgomerie (prominent transwoman and trans activist on Twitter) has not only said that sexual orientation is determined by sex (she used genitals but I think that is pretty much the same) and Katy has subsequently received quite a few accusations of transphobia and being a t**f!

Re. above, we have seen proof on several occasions now that concealing a person's true sex is dangerous - there was a transman in US or Canada who was furious because the doctor wouldn't treat them until they'd had a blood test. Presumably the doctor had twigged that there was more information required for safe treatment of that patient, the patient wasn't forthcoming with that information so the doctor had to refuse treatment until it was provided.

I do think the doctors/surgeons providing the 'reassignment' surgery are doing their patients a huge disservice by not being clear exactly the extent of the outcome - ie. it is a cosmetic change and a change to the balance of hormones in their body but nothing more.

Katy hasn't tried the line 'do you know who I am yet' - that would be a good one....

CharlieParley · 05/03/2021 08:29

That's good idea, DodoPatrol. I might just add that bit to my "don't ever leave a friend in the gutter" talk. (Not solely inspired by what happened to Euan Blair)

Scout2016 · 05/03/2021 08:41

That kidney patient case really stayed with me. Yes, it highlighted many of the dangers around swallowing the falicy wholesale. But overridingly I feel so angry about the medical time, energy and interventions wasted, compounded by the lack of regret from the patient. Who has the nerve to complain. Nearly died, much worse lasting effects that should have been, friends ready to give you a kidney, insurance company bill rockets, wasted over a year of medical services... but hey, it was "cute and awesome" to be treated as a male. I just can't get my head round it.

TheRealMcKenna · 05/03/2021 08:48

Well, I think that’s the end of that.

I think they got the spelling of ‘experiment’ wrong though.

Trans rights are a part of women's rights
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2021 08:55

Did we ever get definitions for woman, gender or gender identity, btw?

Not anything remotely workable or coherent, as expected. Just mantras and evidence-free assertions, and "oh I have to go now, just wanted to start a conversation".

Justhadathought · 05/03/2021 08:58

Why would someone receive "so many emails and notification?". I hardly ever receive any.