Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

I switched mine off. It may be autoset to notifications if mentioned and new messages one one's own thread. And with three threads that definitely adds up.

I think those of us who look at or contribute to FWR are seen as a single, monolithic entity - replete with stereotypical presentations. Obviously not too bright, just "bigoted", and having the obvious solutions pointed out to them, might come as some kind of electrifying experience, which they could not possibly come back from or answer coherently.

When you live in a narrow, very tightly curated on-line/social media world; do not read books; do not take in any mainstream news or current affairs then your view of life and the real world and the people in it must become very flat and one dimensional.

If you reside in the U.S then you will most likely be locked into the interminable struggle between the 'progressives' and the 'religious right', who are, of course, your mortal enemy.

@TheRealMcKenna

Well, I think that’s the end of that.

I think they got the spelling of ‘experiment’ wrong though.

Well, in the end I am not sure it was successful their end. I mean, they even started stating false facts about me last night when someone on twitter pointed out my post as being just one asking politely and reasonably to not use the term c*s.

To their credit, they apologized for the misgendering but not the falsehoods.

They also acknowledged that women should be able to request single sex hcp, but didn’t acknowledge that with the NHS Brighton case of using the letter requesting a female hcp was in fact direct evidence disproving their statement of no negative impact. And refusing to discuss other areas of contention.....

So I could say what I think they were successful in showing but I will have to leave it.

To their credit, they apologized for the misgendering but not the falsehoods.

Only one is of any importance to them.

It does show a very poor work ethic or resilience. That poster lasted one day. What a triumph for whatever they were supposed to be championing. I contrast that with the efforts that womens' groups have made to get as far as the judicial reviews that are happening this week. Flouncing off, claiming that receiving emails is exhausting is just pathetic.

The problem is that even if you read newspapers, these issues are often not covered. Add to that the algorithms on Facebook showing you what you appear to like to see or, alternatively what annoys you the most, and you are creating a perfect storm.

I think in the US, the main current and public defenders of single sex spaces are right wing men. They seem to be able to get away with anything without receiving the same cancellations or online abuse as women. I think many women are flabbergasted that they for the first time in their life agree with people like Paul Rand and Ben Shapiro. I think both of those are violently against abortion so it is an uneasy alliance at best.

We had a video of Paul Rand on here. Ben Shapiro did an entire podcast “facts don’t care about your pronouns”. Any woman trying to do anything similar would have needed 24 hour body guard. And would have been suspended from Twitter.

I have come across the poster on Twitter before and knew exactly what to expect. Attention-seeking, bad faith and mantras.

I did note that eresh.

It seems depth of thought, evidenced research, and material reality was not as important.

But perhaps there was some tasty cookies on offer as we then saw.

If we were on Twitter I would post an appropriate meme right now. I have the perfect one in mind. But I'll leave it to the imagination.

Ahhhh I feel refreshed this morning.🌻🌻🌻

Thank you all, you strong, fearless, formidable women.

Tangential; but, currently reading Abigail Shrier's book Irreversible Damage about the explosion in the number of pubescent girls and young women seeking to transition........

Anyway, one chapter, in particular, got me thinking last night. The observation that in the U.S it seems as if every troublesome feeling, emotion or wayward behaviour must have a diagnosis. Common or garden distress or emotional struggle is seen as being abnormal, as some kind of illness or condition. And of course, there are medications for all of these ills.

Made me think about the friend who I went to college with at 16 years of age ( In Britain). She met an American, fell in love and moved to the U.S. She's been living there for over 30 years now. First in Alaska, now in Arizona. Anyway, she has three children, and all three of them were given ''diagnoses' when they were 10/11/12 years of age, and were put on 'appropriate' medications. ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Syndrome and so on......I did find it shocking. Just normal kids, in a middle class family, suffering a range of common, almost to be expected childhood/youthful/family struggles

It seems like there is a culture in which these struggles to adapt and to discover oneself are almost immediately taken as reasons to see a doctor, or a therapist.Personally find this highly medicalised/pharmaceutical 'solution' world very scary and dystopian, though it is normal in the U.S

When you have a healthcare system where it genuinely pays simply to medicalise everything then that's the outcome, isn't it? It's a business.

Their experiment clearly didn’t yield the results they wanted. They didn’t get the big “gotcha” they hoped for. What they got were lots of factual questions from people who have done a lot of thinking and prefer evidence over assertions.
The interaction of rights in a society is an incredibly complex area - Parliament has multiple debates on it, courts have many cases, different sections on society will have different needs and views.

It’s far to nuanced to reduce to unsubstantiated assertions and mantras.

It's not hard to change notification settings. How strange the OP couldn't work that one out.

Anyway, it looks like we still don't know what a woman is or how we can discern our gender identity. We weren't provided with facts or evidence to back up their assertions. There was no real engagement on key issues such as people with male bodies sharing prisons with people who have female bodies, sports or hcps.

So unfortunately for the OP I have seen nothing that would make me reconsider any of my views.

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes"

& then DadJoke went on to witter about whether the addressee also had 'large slow moving gametes'.

The thing is, it's not an 'also', it's a 'because'. One of the more compelling pieces of evidence I have for my being a woman is that I somehow managed to transform 3 of those large, slow moving gametes into 3 large, slow moving teenagers - although if I hadn't wanted or been able to do that, the existence of said LSMGs would still have been pretty conclusive, whether I put them to use or not.

2 of said teenagers also have LSMGs. They're girls & will soon be women.

Not a single gender identity between us.

@TheRealMcKenna

Well, I think that’s the end of that.

I think they got the spelling of ‘experiment’ wrong though.

Well, what a surprise 😂

& then DadJoke went on to witter about whether the addressee also had 'large slow moving gametes'.

Amusingly he got the gametes the wrong way round the other day.

I somehow managed to transform 3 of those large, slow moving gametes into 3 large, slow moving teenagers

I'm eternally optimistic that one day I will meet someone willing to have a conversation where they set out their terms. Contrary to what many think it isn't necessary that both sides agree on the same definitions - they just have to define terms properly.

After the OP stated that a woman was someone who used she/her or she/them pronouns who identified with being female or a woman, I thought we could get somewhere. Based on all of the statements made by the OP and some logical deductions I parsed that definition as:

"A woman is someone who identifies with the stereotypes associated with the female sex."

For the purposes of this debate it doesn't matter if I agree with this definition or not. It would give us a starting point - a non-circular definition with clear terms. I could work with that. Sadly the OP decided to leave without stating whether this was an acceptable definition.

(As someone said in another thread, it is actually far less productive to debate what a woman is than it is to focus on the needs of female people and the rights they depend on to have those needs met. But it is also true that before we can discuss what women and girls need and why and how to meet those needs, we must at least agree who exactly we are talking about.)

Human rights are human rights.

Women’s rights are women’s rights.

Trans rights are trans rights.

Sex is immutable.

^ This.

I find "cis" highly offensive. I am not Cis and will not accept this gendered label being given to me.

I'm hiding this thread now. There are too many of these clagging up the "Active" conversations list. It's boring, tedious and disingenuous of the OP to start multiple threads which are all the same despite the subject having been done over and over previously.

@Sophoclesthefox

So trans men have female genitals, is that correct?

Therefore transwomen have male genitals?

I don’t think this has been signed off at the correct level, OP.

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable using an institution heavily involved in torture as a source DadJoke

@ASugar Trans rights and women's rights are 2 completely different subjects. You may or may not have had or be going through 'gender reassignment' which will externally you appear female. I am a woman, I was born with and possess a womb, Fallopian tubes, ovaries, eggs and cervix. In my lifetime I've experienced menstruation (at times incredibly uncomfortably), pregnancy, pregnancy complications, childbirth, post-partum depression and I'm incredibly lucky. At some point in my life I will experience menopause; many other women suffer endometriosis, ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, prolapsed womb and that's just what I can think of from the top of my head. Yes you will experience many issues of your own but none of them relevant to being a woman. I myself along with clearly many others find it painfully offensive that we are expected to view trans females as the same. There is in my opinion no such thing as a 'cis woman', only 'trans females' and women.

@slug

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable using an institution heavily involved in torture as a source DadJoke

Which particular source are you referring to?

[quote boymama777]@ASugar Trans rights and women's rights are 2 completely different subjects. You may or may not have had or be going through 'gender reassignment' which will externally you appear female. I am a woman, I was born with and possess a womb, Fallopian tubes, ovaries, eggs and cervix. In my lifetime I've experienced menstruation (at times incredibly uncomfortably), pregnancy, pregnancy complications, childbirth, post-partum depression and I'm incredibly lucky. At some point in my life I will experience menopause; many other women suffer endometriosis, ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage, stillbirth, prolapsed womb and that's just what I can think of from the top of my head. Yes you will experience many issues of your own but none of them relevant to being a woman. I myself along with clearly many others find it painfully offensive that we are expected to view trans females as the same. There is in my opinion no such thing as a 'cis woman', only 'trans females' and women.[/quote]
There's no point directing questions or discussion to @ASugar - she joined to harvest screenshots and evidence of "transphobia", posted it on twitter, then deleted her account, and posted that she had done that on twitter.

Which tells you a lot about the good faith position.